pbone, plastic sax, when tuba?

[Lingon]

...Onto the main topic of plastic horns...

Great, thanks.

...I think we'll have to wait another couple years before we get something nice. The complexity associated with building vlalves wwill take a while in R&D...

I am aware of that but otoh we may be a bit on the way with the carbon fiber rotors which seems to to work, at least some times. The stainless steel pistons seems another way to go which of course not is that lightweight. However, if a rotor in carbon fiber can work, is then the problem to have a casing for it that would not be worn or is it maybe enough to have the bearings in metal and the rest of the casing in some sort of plastic? Like the stockings of the pbone's handslide.

...So, it took three hundred years to "create" the concept of valves. It is only natural that it would take a while to longer to develop them on plastic instruments...

Of course it is, but as everything mover faster and faster, if there is enough interest the development may be slightly quicker. Just compare with for example microchips and their capacity doubling which was a bit slow to start with but for each generation developed faster and faster. And as said, we can send people to the moon so I believe technology will not be the factor that holds it back. Looking forward to the future with hopefully some exciting stuff to come, if only the environment will survive...

[PMeuph]

Of course it is, but as everything mover faster and faster, if there is enough interest the development may be slightly quicker. Just compare with for example microchips and their capacity doubling which was a bit slow to start with but for each generation developed faster and faster. And as said, we can send people to the moon so I believe technology will not be the factor that holds it back. Looking forward to the future with hopefully some exciting stuff to come, if only the environment will survive...

I think it all boils down to supply and demand. The technology to build complete plastic tubas has surely been around for 40-50 years. However the cost of doing so has been outside the the regular price of coonsumers. Since there hasn't been much of a demand ( why would there be, there are plenty of great brass instruments) there are no companies currently working on them.

The advantage of the pBone is that it is priced reasonably well enough to be used as a curiosity or has a pure play toy. I will surely buy one sometime soon-ish and the purpose will most likely be comical. ( Playing a comedic number in a jazz set, getting a laugh out from it at a rehearsal, playing in a river/lake/pool, and outdoor gigs in Canada ) I do not see these plastic instruments as anything more than "Fancy toys" and I figure that many other people agree with that.

Just some food for thought... Excellent Carbon-fiber Cellos, Violas and Violins are endorsed by some of the worlds top players.
http://www.luisandclark.com/category/players/
Even though their cost is significantly less than professional instruments. ( a Cello is around 7000$ while a cello used by a pro in a major symphony could be at least 70,000$) They still do not have enough of a reputation to lead to a major change from wood-based instruments. The same holds true for brass.

This was my round-about way of saying that even though the technology is there to build the instruments, it will take time for the market to learn and accept the change.

One more thing, I still don't think that the pBone is "old news." It has been around for over a year but not more than that. We all know about here on this board and the same goes for other boards (trombone or brass related) but it certainly isn't well known with every trombone player out there.

[Lingon]

...In 1954 the thinking was that fiberglass was almost indestructible. This is a fantasy. Kids can destroy anything !...

True.

...Most thermal formed instruments could be repaired with a ..............."tuba glue" ...

Well, I just asked one of the techs here if he had stocked up with pbone glue and plastic details for repairing the new instruments when they arrives...

...FWIW; I used to have a white styrene tuba that weighed thirteen pounds. Without the valves it weighs around 3-3/12 lbs...

That's it, if the valves could also be made very light. Certainly in the right direction.

...Of course, building plastic tubas exposes factory workers to all sorts of toxic fumes, but that's OK, because we can buy them from the Communist Chinese...

That is of course not OK. But if the methods to make the plastic is refined in a way that is friendly to both the environment and the people working with it, then it would be OK to buy them from whichever country including the the ones you stated I suppose.

(New entry)
I did start a new thread in the Off Topic forum for those interested in discussing the off topics that for example this thread, and others, is not about. It seems that it was not politically correct to do that so unfortunately there is no chance to discuss that side of this thread's Off Topics.

(original text)
I have started a new thread in the Off Topic forum for those interested in discussing the off topics that for example this thread, and others, is not about. If this works it should be here.

[Lingon]

Is the pbone made in China?

Yes it seems so. Check this message over at the tromboneforum.

[Lingon]

...I think it all boils down to supply and demand...
...Since there hasn't been much of a demand ( why would there be, there are plenty of great brass instruments) there are no companies currently working on them....
...One more thing, I still don't think that the pBone is "old news."...

You are certainley correct. Maybe it is just me that want everything too quick.

...The advantage of the pBone is that it is priced reasonably well enough to be used as a curiosity or has a pure play toy. I will surely buy one sometime soon-ish and the purpose will most likely be comical. ( Playing a comedic number in a jazz set, getting a laugh out from it at a rehearsal, playing in a river/lake/pool, and outdoor gigs in Canada ) I do not see these plastic instruments as anything more than "Fancy toys" and I figure that many other people agree with that...

Well, the the use as a play toy is one perspective. I can however see more uses for it, if the quality proves to be good enough. The sound and playability as demonstrated by for example Jiggs Whigham and others seems to be at a level which is so good that it can be used in many situations. Outdoor gigs where you will not bring the Shires is one thing, kids that start out is another. Longer periods of practicing when the brass instrument's weight cause strain in your arm and wrist etc. If there will ever be a larger bore pbone it will be even more useful. I have contacted them about a F bass pbone, which unfortunately was not scheduled for the moment.

...Just some food for thought... Excellent Carbon-fiber Cellos, Violas and Violins are endorsed by some of the worlds top players.
http://www.luisandclark.com/category/players/
Even though their cost is significantly less than professional instruments. ( a Cello is around 7000$ while a cello used by a pro in a major symphony could be at least 70,000$) They still do not have enough of a reputation to lead to a major change from wood-based instruments. The same holds true for brass...

Thanks for that link. Excellent information and very interesting to see those top musicians that uses these unconventional instruments. I have also heard that some of string musicians in our orchestra discussed carbon fiber bows and some of them did like it. I find the following from their site a bit thoughtful:
----------- snip --------- snip ------------ snip --------
...Carbon fiber reinforced composites are very strong for their weight. They’re often stronger than steel, but much lighter. Because of this, they can be used to replace metals in many uses, from parts for airplanes and the space shuttle to tennis rackets, golf clubs, skis and fishing poles and stringed instruments...
----------- snip --------- snip ------------ snip --------
which seems to indicate that our beloved brass instruments are not so good candidates?! Space shuttle and violins, but not tubas, at least yet. Let's hope for the future.

[tubajazzo]

There is already a carbon fiber model of the serpent, one of the predecessors of the tuba
http://www.serpentmakers.ch/n2n/page.ph ... d=20&lid=2" target="_blank

But it is made in Switzerland, not in China.

[imperialbari]

http://kaiserserpents.com/index.htm

[Lingon]

Thanks for the serpent links. The Schweizer one was news for me but the American one have I seen before. Interestingly on the latter the news is that they are going from plastic to wood...
There is also one "high density polymer" tenor serpent, the Harding serpent, to be found in the UK. On that site The Early Music Shop there are also a couple of other interesting instruments to use when performing early music.

So it seems there are more and more plastic or similar instruments showing up, now with the forerunnner to the tuba. When will we, or who will, find a complete playable working plastic or carbon fiber tuba somewhere in the world? I am still interested in the question about the valves. If deciding on rotaries, is there a chance it will work with plastic casings with metal bearings, as I believe plastic bearings will wear out pretty fast?

[joh_tuba]

http://www.jm-gmbh.de/html/e_meinlschmidt_tuba.html

I'd settle for some of these on my plastic tuba.... or should it be a carbon fiber tuba?

[Donn]

Perhaps if someone makes one of these like the P-bone, make the bell detachable and perhaps make some of the tubings or something detach. I think it would be a better idea to fly with a lightweight tuba than the mini-travel tuba for $7000....

This is where the inflatable tuba really brings it.

The way I envision it, the leadpipe and valve tubing would a compact arrangement of, say, clear vinyl tubing like you might find in rolls at the hardware store, and the larger sections would be made of progressively thinner and more flexible material. The outer membrane of the instrument would envelope this whole assembly and present a rather large, featureless oblong object with a mouthpiece inserted on the side, valve buttons on the front, and a bell opening on the end, so depending on the angle it might look kind of like you're playing a rubber raft.

It probably won't save as much weight as you'd hope, nor will it fit in your pocket, but it could easily fold up suitcase size.

[imperialbari]

Some factors will contribute to the compactness of the inflatable tuba. Ideal bore progression of the main bugle can be obtained from the layout of the fabric patterns. Bends of the large branches can be much sharper that with brass tubing. Some sort of tuning option will be necessary, maybe a long main tuning slide rather than slides in the valve tubing, which can be routed to run in the spaces left between the fatter branches. I am no CAD expert, but I would be surprised, if there weren’t applications already optimizing the routings within cooling systems and possibly in the context of oil refineries.

Maybe there will be no stitches at all. Glue and fusion by heat may be relevant alternatives.

As there may be potential for a tuba doubling as a life raft, there may be a special interest from nay and marine bands.

Klaus

[Bob Kolada]

Hell, I thought tuba people were supposed to be jolly...

I have contacted them about a F bass pbone, which unfortunately was not scheduled for the moment.

I remember reading on the trombone forum someone posting that they had SENT 200 bucks to the pBone people (back when it was only in England) for an F bass. I want one! What better for that Bartok gliss than a black plastic F bass?

To be fair, I believe the plastic trombone actually has metal linings in the slides.

I think they are, you can certainly see it at the end of the stockings when you remove the outer slide

I briefly saw one at J.c. Sherman's shop; this setup may have changed slightly.

[ken k]

Is the pbone made in China?

yes it is

[imperialbari]

Why not think a bit inventive on basis of well known technologies?

The sausage bassoon told us how to wind a long sequence of conical tubing so it takes up very little space.

Inflatable sports’ halls told us how to make structures with a minimum of material (as measured in weight).

Take a sewing machine and its driver. In TN contexts the code words are Armadillo-Texas.

Take some dense non-penetrable fabric. In TN contexts the code words are too many to name.

Take an engineer specializing in covering up complex routings. In TN contexts the code words are Residual Genius.

Combine these elements.

Hints:

The fabric shall be in two layers. The space between the layers shall be inflated to get structural stability. The pressure shall be maintained by means of bellows placed under the arm of the player and activated like some types of bagpipes. With marching tubists the bellows may be mounted under the soles of the player’s shoes. The necessary plastic tubing will not be very noticeable even with female players in skimpy skirts. Just choose the right colour and the tubing will look like varices.

No need for heavy valve systems. Changes of routing are achieved by hinged throttles where only the upstream ones ned to be activated. The downstream ones will be blown into their right position by the player’s intensely wide, warm, and well supported air supply. Fabric should be selected so it can take the heat.

The current citizen Kane should not be involved in the process. He is leaning too much towards transparency. This project should be all stitched up.

K

[David Richoux]

If a plastic sax, why not a plastic ophicleide?!

I have a fiberglass Serpent - it sounds just about as bad as the wooden ones!

[imperialbari]

How does it sound, if you tape the holes tight?

Klaus

Aired by iPad

[Greg Lecewicz]

This one somebody is selling on the Forum.

[David Richoux]

How does it sound, if you tape the holes tight?

Klaus

Aired by iPad

Klaus, if you were asking about my replica Serpent, it sounds like buzzing into a sewer pipe most of the time, but the fundamental (all holes closed) is not too bad. I got it long before there was a revival of interest in the instrument - after hearing some of the current masters of the horn, I know it would take a long time to learn to play it as well as what I am hearing!