New/old tubist needs advice

[bernynhel]

Ive been playing guitar for 40+years but now I'm going to be a beginning tuba player but can I do this entirely DIY as there are no tubas where I live (Palm Desert, CA)? Also: What bb♭ tuba to buy that has good enough demand to resell should I crash and burn? Google searches result in several under $3000 at places like GuitarCenter and MusiciansFriend but I dont want to get stuck with a $3000 tuba if I can easily unload a $5000-10000 one and if I play forever then price isnt as important as playability and tone. How do I choose a mouthpiece? Which is the best course of self study?

Thanks!

Bill

[Donn]

Why do you want to play tuba?

There are a range of instruments that go by the name "tuba", and of course all kinds of music. Do you see yourself in some kind of indoors orchestra situation? Polkas? Banda? Marching band? Dixieland? Sousaphones are very popular in southern California lately, for banda or possibly other Mexican styles, so there are lots of them available, but at possibly premium prices relative to their virtues as musical instruments.

There's an apparently nice condition Holton stencil Yamaha 103 for sale in San Diego, $2100. That's a well regarded, versatile instrument that might be a very good starter horn. You could probably get one cheaper, and more beat up, via online auctions etc. In LA, one of the two Horn Guys locations might be a fabulous place to look at mouthpieces, though at this point, with apparently no experience playing, you might as well pick something at random like a Faxx 18.

Sure, you can do it yourself. You may end up wasting a lot of time, teaching yourself wrong in ways that will take a long time to recover from, but I suppose you could get a teacher to teach you wrong, too, and at least when you do it yourself it's free.

[jimmilo]

I was in the same situation two years ago. I watched California's Gold with Huell Howser and he was doing a story about Tuba Christmas. Huell interviewed Jim Self. After watching that program I got the bug to play. I didn't know where to turn.
I bought a used tuba off ebay and began to make noise on the horn. I bought beginner tuba method books. After a short time I went to the Horn Guys in Long Beach looking a teacher. A great teacher was recommended and I've been with him ever since. I quickly out grew my first tuba and and bought a used Mienl Weton 25. It's a great horn. Not expensive and I should get my money back when I go to sell it. After a year of practice I joined a community band and I never looked back.
Recently I decided to challenge myself even more and purchased a CC tuba. I'm fumbling around with the fingerings but still having a blast. I may never pickup my old tuba.
Good luck wherever your musical journey takes you.

[bernynhel]

Why do you want to play tuba?

There are a range of instruments that go by the name "tuba", and of course all kinds of music. Do you see yourself in some kind of indoors orchestra situation? Polkas? Banda? Marching band? Dixieland? Sousaphones are very popular in southern California lately, for banda or possibly other Mexican styles, so there are lots of them available, but at possibly premium prices relative to their virtues as musical instruments.

There's an apparently nice condition Holton stencil Yamaha 103 for sale in San Diego, $2100. That's a well regarded, versatile instrument that might be a very good starter horn. You could probably get one cheaper, and more beat up, via online auctions etc. In LA, one of the two Horn Guys locations might be a fabulous place to look at mouthpieces, though at this point, with apparently no experience playing, you might as well pick something at random like a Faxx 18.

Sure, you can do it yourself. You may end up wasting a lot of time, teaching yourself wrong in ways that will take a long time to recover from, but I suppose you could get a teacher to teach you wrong, too, and at least when you do it yourself it's free.

A few years ago I found myself humming tuba lines to myself as I went around my daily business. Not just bass lines, tuba lines mimicking tuba voicing. Soon I had out my old John Philips Sousa record and memorized the tuba lines to several marches, began humming alternate baselines to songs on the radio but as a tuba and not an electric bass. Then I registered here a couple of years ago and now Im buying a tuba and going forward. Marches and orchestral music are my favorite tubawise, but I wouldn't be adverse to playing tuba to any kind of music. Polka and banda music didn't occur to me but I wouldn't turn down a gig if I was capable and asked by someone in need.

As far as the range of instruments called tubas are concerned, I don't suppose all can play the lowest notes written for tuba in orchestral and band music and so I would only be interested in an instrument that could do everything a tuba might be called upon to do so wouldn't a 4/4 or 5/4 BB♭ 4 valve or maybe a CC be a couple of the few tuba type instruments that could do all things tuba?

Isn't the San Diego horn a 3/4 3 valve? There's a 5 valve Miraphone 186 on eBay although I'm not sure I want to start off with a 5 valve - any thoughts?

As far as teaching myself wrong for free, that doesn't sound like much of a bargain. Aren't there any tubists who are highly regarded who have any video instruction available? That's one of reasons I'm here: to find out whom I might learn from, correctly.

Thanks for taking the time to help!

BIll

[bernynhel]

If you are looking for "name-brand"...and "3-valve" is good enough, you can find playable tubas (with denting from "significant" to "nil") in a price range from $500 - $1500.

If you are looking for a full-size somewhat-fancy tuba that is shiny-new, there are some very playable Chinese-made instruments that are priced at the top of the previously-mentioned price range. I see used/like-new $1500 Chinese tubas sell for around $1000 - $1200.

You can also find some older/not-shiny/not-the-most-popular-but-good-playing European-made 4-rotor (i.e. "somewhat fancy", but certainly not "new") tubas for around the same price range as the brand-new fancy Chinese tubas.

Occasionally, people I know have run into good, playable, name-brand tubas for stupid-cheap prices. A year or so ago, an upright bass-playing professional (friend of mine) picked up a Conn 3-valve BBb tuba (that only needed about $100 or work) for only about $80. A deal such is this is not commonplace.

Browsing eBay for a few months (along with carefully filtering chit-chat on this site) can supply a bit of education regarding brands/models/condition/values.

Any response from me more specific that this, likely, won't be of much use to you at this time (until you spend time doing some of your own research)...but I think it answers your basic question...eh?

Thanks! A 4/4 or 5/4 US or German 4-rotor is probably what I have in mind. Id like to spend $5k or less but will go higher if its a great deal. Even if I realize I'll never be able to play to my satisfaction on Day 1 I could easily re-sell a quality instrument - or have I got it all wrong?

[bernynhel]

I was in the same situation two years ago. I watched California's Gold with Huell Howser and he was doing a story about Tuba Christmas. Huell interviewed Jim Self. After watching that program I got the bug to play. I didn't know where to turn.
I bought a used tuba off ebay and began to make noise on the horn. I bought beginner tuba method books. After a short time I went to the Horn Guys in Long Beach looking a teacher. A great teacher was recommended and I've been with him ever since. I quickly out grew my first tuba and and bought a used Mienl Weton 25. It's a great horn. Not expensive and I should get my money back when I go to sell it. After a year of practice I joined a community band and I never looked back.
Recently I decided to challenge myself even more and purchased a CC tuba. I'm fumbling around with the fingerings but still having a blast. I may never pickup my old tuba.
Good luck wherever your musical journey takes you.

Great story! Well if I push any air outside of the horn at all I'll be encouraged to stick with it. Another post mentioned the Horn Guys. l'll check them out. So is your CC a 5 valve? Thanks!

- Bill

[bort]

Get a used Miraphone 186. You should be able to get one for under $4,000, and probably even a lot less than that. In that price range, you would likely be able to sell it again for the same price. Maybe a little less, but all things considered, you wouldn't lose much money at all on the deal.

A Meinl Weston 20 or 25 would also be a good idea. Maybe check out the MW-20 that bloke is selling.

[eupher61]

I'm not questioning your motives or anything, but the first thought that went through my mind was a classified ad from 1969. something like "young man with unlimited capital seeks business situations". That led to 3 Days of Peace, Love, and Music. Woodstock.

I hope your investment is as rewarding culturally and much more so financially!

Don't worry about 3 or 4 valve at this point. Orchestral music needing things below low E are not uncommon, but not worth worrying about for now. Band music almost always has octave options written, and rarely will a complaint be heard if a written note,out of range, is taken up. Band directors are more understanding than most orchestra conductors .
You need an instrument which plays well, period. Anything else is important only should you wish to sell. There will always be a market for a 103. Or a MW25, or 186.

[Donn]

A 3/4 tuba has certain advantages. If you're really always in a situation where you can tow your instrument to your spot and sit down to start playing it, then the advantages are fewer. But someone of reasonable stature can play standing up, or walking, with a smaller, front valve tuba like that 103, so you might see it as an option that combines the virtues of a regular tuba and a sousaphone. Or you might not - it sounds like you have your head screwed on and can trust your own judgement. I started with an Olds 3 valve that may have been a little bigger than the 103 but not much, and often think I should have stuck with it - if you see an old Reynolds or Bach front valve, more or less the same thing, maybe Conn 12J. Another advantage is that they're supposed to be more manageable for new players who aren't used to tuba.

[Alex F]

There's a Conn 10J for sale in the Classifieds section. Don't know where it is located (wish sellers would put that in their posts) but these are great starter tubas. I owned one for a time and, when I sold it, the buyer's teacher, a local pro, played it with a Kelly mouthpiece and blew the socks off the thing. It's a top-action 3 banger but has everything you need for the first couple of years (and probably more).

[bernynhel]

Get a used Miraphone 186. You should be able to get one for under $4,000, and probably even a lot less than that. In that price range, you would likely be able to sell it again for the same price. Maybe a little less, but all things considered, you wouldn't lose much money at all on the deal.

A Meinl Weston 20 or 25 would also be a good idea. Maybe check out the MW-20 that bloke is selling.

This is pretty much what I figured out following links suggested by previous posts - one point to consider - a CC is more orchestral and preferred by many orchestras - but heck - if I ever get good enough to try out for an orchestra, making the change from BB♭ to CC shouldnt slow me down too much - thanks - a Miraphone 186 or Meinl Weston it is.

[bernynhel]

There's a Conn 10J for sale in the Classifieds section. Don't know where it is located (wish sellers would put that in their posts) but these are great starter tubas. I owned one for a time and, when I sold it, the buyer's teacher, a local pro, played it with a Kelly mouthpiece and blew the socks off the thing. It's a top-action 3 banger but has everything you need for the first couple of years (and probably more).

Im afraid I might get bored with a 10J after a week. Why are you laughing? Stop laughing! (jk) Thanks, that, Alex, Ill check it out.

How about a course of study, anyone? Wheres the Tommy Johnson's "How to Master the Tuba and Make the BIG BUCKS in 100 Easy Lessons" video series on CD ROM? Or something?

Bill

[Alex F]

If you have the $$, the 186 is a great choice. Another is the King 2341: great intonation, made in the USA, great all-around horn. The Hornguys carry both. Steve and his crew are great to work with.

[eupho]

If you already read bass clef and have never played tuba(BBb) before, a CC would be an easy learning curve as the fingerings will make perfect sense and you can play in any kind of group. A 186 CC would be an excellent choice.

[bernynhel]

If you already read bass clef and have never played tuba(BBb) before, a CC would be an easy learning curve as the fingerings will make perfect sense and you can play in any kind of group. A 186 CC would be an excellent choice.

What if Ive never blown anything bigger than a blues harp and dont know a bass clef from my elbow? Wouldnt any fingering be the same challenge? And if my goal is a BB♭, wouldnt it be easier to just start with BB♭ fingering now and avoid transposing later? If starting with a BB♭ 4 banger, a low B natural will always be 1-2-3 or 2-4 and not a 1-2-3 or 2-4 now vs whatever else it used to be on a CC, right? Or what did I miss? I really don't know. Thanks!

[PMeuph]

My advice:
Learning music is sometimes a challenge in the beginning. The tuba is sometimes hard for certain people to pick up. Lessons with a teacher help out a tremendous amount. Also, joining a group helps out. Lots of band music and lots of beginner method books are very Bb centric. They start on Bb and work there way from there.

You might want to look into a new horizons group. They are bands made for older adults who want to start learning music.
http://www.newhorizonsmusic.org/" target="_blank
____
As for the instrument, a good 4-valve BBb tuba is your best bet. Find one used, take good care of it and if you want to resell it there will be a market for it. A miraphone 186 can be used in just about any musical situation.

If you already read bass clef and have never played tuba(BBb) before, a CC would be an easy learning curve as the fingerings will make perfect sense and you can play in any kind of group. A 186 CC would be an excellent choice.

What if Ive never blown anything bigger than a blues harp and dont know a bass clef from my elbow? Wouldnt any fingering be the same challenge? And if my goal is a BB♭, wouldnt it be easier to just start with BB♭ fingering now and avoid transposing later? If starting with a BB♭ 4 banger, a low B natural will always be 1-2-3 or 2-4 and not a 1-2-3 or 2-4 now vs whatever else it used to be on a CC, right? Or what did I miss? I really don't know. Thanks!

Yes B natural will be 1-2-3 or 2-4 (and 1-2-3-4 on compensating horns). On a CC tuba is would be 2. I don't see the inherent advantage of starting on CC instead of BBb given that you have no previous experience.

[Mark Horne]

If you're in the low desert area then in addition to visiting the Horn Guys, I would suggest contacting Noah at the brassark.com (they are within a few blocks of eachother). Noah has a number of tubas, inculding several not listed on his site (a demo 186 5V CC being one of them). The advantage of going through a consignment business is that if you decide that the instrument is not for you, you can always re-consign it and you will pretty much only be out the consignment fee. Compare that to the cost of renting a comparable instrument and you will find that it is a cost-effective means of finding an instrument you like, or enabling future upgrades.

I myself took up tuba after nearly 40 years on other instruments and decided on the CC route - a choice that has worked out very well for me.

[Donn]

And if my goal is a BB♭, wouldnt it be easier to just start with BB♭ fingering now and avoid transposing later?

Yes. If you were used to trumpet notation, for example, then it would be a little different, but even then not a really compelling reason.

Bb makes a lot of sense, but if a C reaches out and grabs you, or even an Eb bass tuba, I'd say go home with something you like and the key will not be a big problem. (Well, bass tuba isn't exactly substitutable for contrabass, so you'd want to think about that, but there's a lot of overlap.)

[bernynhel]

Thanks to all the above: PMeuph, Mark Horne and Donn for all the great advise!
- Bill

[eupho]

The 3/4 Kanstul CC is a very nimble horn. One has been on here recently.