Quality Piston B-flat Tuba?

[adelarosa]

Folks,
A local band director approached me following lessons one afternoon, exclaiming how he longs for the opportunity to find quality B-flat piston-valved tubas. A few years back they had a surplus in budget and bought sixteen (16) Yamaha YBB-641 4 valve rotors (must've been one heck of a surplus) and he was proclaiming his regret ever since. Rotors are "too slow." (!!!)
Lo and behold, I'd never really given the thought much consideration as I've never been in the market for a piston B-flat horn. I've been doing some research and have come up pretty short when it comes to nailing down a few considerations that may fit this bill.

Any ideas, suggestions, etc.? Consider that the horns will be subjected to high school, so no matter how good the students they're going to become abused. And that they'll probably want same exact make/model and manufactured around the same time for general consistency. My mind immediately went to the clones, possibly putting in a special order manufactured with pistons, but I thought I'd ask the knowledgeable group before giving an $100,000 answer to a very motivated director.

I'm of the camp that with lessons, practice - perhaps a few educated mouthpiece choices - any student, even high school, may achieve competent playing results. Other thoughts?

[Cthuba]

On the whole rotors being too slow. That is BS.

Your question however is what are good piston BBbs well I would say-

King 2341 (if this district can afford that many yamahas)

A king 2341 clone. These are cheaper. Much cheaper. I would try Wessex or Dillon or Baltimore brass as they all sell the clone of the horn.

Big mouth brass has good horns as well but I can not say if they can endure.

[jon112780]

Slow rotors? Use a rubber band.

Loop one around the 2nd valve slide ring first, and then the other end to the bottom of the linkage.

This will work for the first 3 valves, but wrap the 4th valve rubber band around the 3rd or 4th slide tubing instead of the 2nd valve slide ring.

You can experiment with rubber band tightness to get the tension how you want it.

This could be a permanent fix for your tubas for only a couple dollars and a minute of your time. http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/8 ... -Bands-64/" target="_blank

I used to do this to my 186 BBb in high school. I don't have a rotor horn or I'd do it and take a pic for ya' (sorry).

[PMeuph]

Slow Rotors?

Clean 'em with this:

http://www.amazon.com/Gojo-0955-Natural ... B000CCOK6Q" target="_blank" target="_blank

.... Or a scotch brite pad....

Rotors are as fast as pistons when properly taken care of....


Don't believe everything on the net, but cleaning and oiling always works for me

[hubert]

Bloke already hinted to some European ones.
A lot of manufacturers over here use Bauerfeind valves. Are being considered as very good.
Miraphone and Melton/MeinlWeston have their own. In general OK, with an exception now and then....
The most outstanding are Wilson in my view.
Hubert.

[adelarosa]

Thanks for the excellent responses, everyone. No idea why the 1291 B-flat slipped my mind; I play alongside one every Thursday evening. Will definitely pass along the idea of the Kings...

While I have no knock against rotors myself - love my Alex F (and have played my share of B&S rotors) - I just thought the comment curious and wanted some good opinions. Glad I'm not the only person who believes a few trips to the repair shop is more than necessary for upkeeping quality tubas in top shape.

Out of curiosity, how do other schools compare when dealing with said repair/upkeep - is it always the student who's asked to fill the bill, or do most programs who own the horns pay for the maintenance? Even though I was one of those tuba-renting guys in high school, I find it incredibly unbalanced to ask the flute to take her instrument and repad/realign/resolder on her own dime when the tuba merely says, "Well, it's a school horn. They pay." What other models might be more conducive to having both parties involved in taking part for the regular care?

I ask because a simple trip - wash, minor dent removal - can rack up a small $200 bill pretty quickly. I bet I could have three trumpets serviced for that amount. And while, as a tuba player, I realize that's a part of the gig that comes with owning the horn, I wonder how best to convey to up-and-coming pupils that these "large pieces of brass" simply aren't just "school horns."

Thanks again.

[adelarosa]

My apologies; perhaps I've been unclear or given misinformation that's somehow lead to this conclusion that there's a massive waste of funds. My main questions were intended:
1) how may one better utilize rotor-valved horns
2) what kind of piston B-flat tubas might provide a good instrument for a quality music program
and
3) what viable options are there that may teach the student the importance of treating the instrument with care, helping provide - or provide in their entirety - the upkeep and maintenance of a horn?
Much like owning a car and coming to the stark realization of changing the oil, paying insurance, and buying tires, we all learn that "wanting to drive" comes with more responsibilities than the simple pleasure of wishing to cruise.

And despite my attempts to simply ask a few HONEST questions (and throw in humor - perhaps that was my downfall!), I'm bombarded with assertions and judgmental accusations that undermine the competence and decisions of a band program.

I like TubeNet. I've loved to work with its constituents thus far. But is this how we treat one another, assuming the worst of everyone's simplest questions?

[adelarosa]

A local band director approached me following lessons one afternoon, exclaiming how he longs for the opportunity to find quality B-flat piston-valved tubas. A few years back they had a surplus in budget and bought sixteen (16) Yamaha YBB-641 4 valve rotors (must've been one heck of a surplus) and he was proclaiming his regret ever since. Rotors are "too slow." (!!!)
Lo and behold, I'd never really given the thought much consideration as I've never been in the market for a piston B-flat horn. I've been doing some research and have come up pretty short when it comes to nailing down a few considerations that may fit this bill.

Sounded like "shopping mode" engaged.

Good luck.

Excuse me, but that is an assumption forced upon my statement. I would have included that it was a passing remark while talking shop with another tuba player, but I thought I was in good company.

Thanks for the insight from everyone.

[TubaZac2012]

In my opinion the best piston BBb tuba is the newer King 2341. great intonation. Valves are good. And the sound they produce is very colorful, for a BBb.

[The Big Ben]

A local band director approached me following lessons one afternoon, exclaiming how he longs for the opportunity to find quality B-flat piston-valved tubas. A few years back they had a surplus in budget and bought sixteen (16) Yamaha YBB-641 4 valve rotors (must've been one heck of a surplus) and he was proclaiming his regret ever since. Rotors are "too slow." (!!!)
Lo and behold, I'd never really given the thought much consideration as I've never been in the market for a piston B-flat horn. I've been doing some research and have come up pretty short when it comes to nailing down a few considerations that may fit this bill.

Sounded like "shopping mode" engaged.

Good luck.

Excuse me, but that is an assumption forced upon my statement. I would have included that it was a passing remark while talking shop with another tuba player, but I thought I was in good company.

Your initial post suggested that a band director was going to surplus 16 horns that cost $80K (16 x $5000/ea) and *might* get $40K return so would be spending $40K in a few year's time just because he thought the rotors were "slow". (Those numbers are probably low because I didn't look up the current cost of that horn and, buying 16 of them, there might be a discount. Losing 50% of the purchase price after a few years is probably pretty accurate.) You're delusional if you think the TNFJ is *not* going to say something about that.

[tofu]

Based on the brief info given I can't imagine just buying new horns is going to improve the valve speed of the tuba section.

[deholder]

FWIW, you should slow down before you get your panties in a wad. You presented a band director who had 16 yamaha tubas with a poor assertion that rotors were too slow.

Professionals took the time to address your comments. It would be unwise to gripe them out for offering a very solid opinion when you solicited it.
Now to address your cost of tuba repair expense, it depends on the rental agreement with the parent / school. Like you said it can be very costly to upkeep a tuba. I do the maintenance on my daughters school horn (both a french horn and marching melophone). It is my pleasure to do so. I keep pictures and records. She dents it we fix it. Period. I have never even asked the band director.
But when it was stepped on at all district a few weeks ago, the director met me in the hallway and stated emphatically that this was on him and he was having it fixed.
I played university tubas for my 5 years marching. We fixed damage they cleaned them every few years. But it was tuba cult to Don swim trunks and take ye ol tuba in the shower for a good rinse before it was put away. It was bad form to not care for the horn.

[adelarosa]

FWIW, you should slow down before you get your panties in a wad. You presented a band director who had 16 yamaha tubas with a poor assertion that rotors were too slow.

Professionals took the time to address your comments. It would be unwise to gripe them out for offering a very solid opinion when you solicited it.

Agreed. However, I asked questions and the circumstances that were mere background were decontextualized and critiqued as an end argument. A mere portion of my experience was revealed, and again, not to discount the value of opinion, I simply was taken back by the outlash. That is uncharacteristic and uncharitable.

Now to address your cost of tuba repair expense, it depends on the rental agreement with the parent / school. Like you said it can be very costly to upkeep a tuba. I do the maintenance on my daughters school horn (both a french horn and marching melophone). It is my pleasure to do so. I keep pictures and records. She dents it we fix it. Period. I have never even asked the band director.

Again, agreed. But this is not the norm. I never even knew the cost and consequences of my actions as a high school student. The first $500 bill for my own Meinl's dent removal, chem clean, and slight modifications was a slap in the face. That should come sooner than Freshman year of undergrad - high school directors must have other ideas for introduction even if it still keeps the cost internal to the program. Hence my question to other methods people may have already developed.

But when it was stepped on at all district a few weeks ago, the director met me in the hallway and stated emphatically that this was on him and he was having it fixed.

That's the right thing to do, certainly. Like putting a note on a car when we accidentally bump into the back end!

[The Big Ben]

FWIW, you should slow down before you get your panties in a wad. You presented a band director who had 16 yamaha tubas with a poor assertion that rotors were too slow.

Professionals took the time to address your comments. It would be unwise to gripe them out for offering a very solid opinion when you solicited it.

Agreed. However, I asked questions and the circumstances that were mere background were decontextualized and critiqued as an end argument. A mere portion of my experience was revealed, and again, not to discount the value of opinion, I simply was taken back by the outlash. That is uncharacteristic and uncharitable.

I guess since you have only been here a couple of months you don't know the personalities of the people you are dealing with. Some of the finest tuba players in the world are here. (And then there's me.) I have received information both on the public side of the board and in private which stretch into tens of pages about tuba technique and how I might get better. And, what would you expect from a guy whose user name is "Curmudgeon"? Regarding TubeNet, and the 'uncharacteristic' reaction to such a proposed waste of money based on utter foolishness, that's pretty much the 'characteristic' response you are going to get from the TNFJ.

You have also been offered the other information you have asked for in a pretty comprehensive manner. I would suggest you drop this and move along to something else.

[Pat S]

But it was tuba cult to Don swim trunks and take ye ol tuba in the shower for a good rinse before it was put away. It was bad form to not care for the horn.

Do tell... That's an interesting tuba maintenance solution. Oh the idyllic days of college!

[Pat S]

Some of the finest tuba players on the world are here.

That's been my experience as well. Gracious hospitality has been the norm for me. When the day comes when I say something off-the-mark (could be any day now), I won't be surprised when I'm met with brutal honesty.

[toobagrowl]

Geez --- 16 Yamaha 641 BBb tubas? Those are expensive tubas, and are plenty good for a high school program. Get them serviced by a good repair tech

[deholder]

But it was tuba cult to Don swim trunks and take ye ol tuba in the shower for a good rinse before it was put away. It was bad form to not care for the horn.

Do tell... That's an interesting tuba maintenance solution. Oh the idyllic days of college!

Well there were no tubs, just showers in the building. So we would take out all valves, slides and clean them in the sinks and then do tuba in the shower. It was just a rinse, nothing chemical or soapy. But it seemed to do the trick. Oh yeah, we also used a shoe string with a penny or something on it to pull a rag through all the pipes.
Nothing like a 4/4 Conn Nickle Convertible

[Jess Haney]

I would vote towards a top action Yamaha 321 or the like.....why?.....the valves are kept inside the horn and are away from unwanted damage from laying the horn down on its front. this comes in handy with high school kids that are always in a hurry, and like the King 2341 it has many clones and well and the used ones can be bought at a descent price. Parts are always available and most repair techs are familiar with them. I once saw a high school here in Colorado that had 12 Conn 20js that were overhauled to make a very formidable tuba section. Same principle and very sturdy horns. I have even seen middle schools with those placed in tuba tamers for the little guys and they just roll around on the floor.

[NCSUSousa]

I would vote towards a top action Yamaha 321 or the like.....why?.....the valves are kept inside the horn and are away from unwanted damage from laying the horn down on its front.

I've been told that laying a top action horn down on its front can actually damage the valve casing. The force transfers through the valve branch knuckle (where it turns to enter the valve) and can warp the valve casing itself. It's actually part of the arguement that's made for buying the front action King/Conn/Jupiter for MS/HS bands instead of the top action version. Valve stems may bend easy, but they're easy to fix too. Valve casings on the other hand can't easily be fixed.
My HS had King 3/4 convertibles for marching and concert band and the director never let us lay them on their fronts.

I'd love to hear from the repair pros about this subject. It's been a while since I talked to the guys at Pearson Music about this. (Pearson's was the Durham NC music shop with a repair department - when I was in HS and College.)