King Tuba Rotary Valves

[Dan Schultz]

Mark has a King rotary for sale in the 'for sale' section. I didn't want to derail his posting by asking questions so I decided to start a new thread.

I've owned a King 'pit' model BBb and currently have a King 1291 'monster' rotary tuba. Both of them have rotors that I think were made in Europe. I say that only because the machining characteristics look like other European rotors I've seen... specifically Meinl.

My horn was made in 1941 and is probably one of the last rotary tubas made under the King name. I understand that it's being a BBb with a .750" bore makes it the rarest of the King rotaries.

I've been told by a couple of folks that King made their own tuba rotors. However... during a conversation at ITEC last week it was mentioned that King probably purchased a batch of rotor assemblies and suggested that this 'batch' might have consisted of perhaps 250 sets inclusive of both the .687" and .750" bores... with the majority being .687". Of this batch of 250 sets of rotors, most of the tubas built were the CC 'Bill Bell' variety with a .687" bore.

The King rotary tubas were built between 1925 and 1942 (I think) so it's not likely anyone is still around who would have any first-hand information.

Discussion?

[kingconn]

I had a 1291 monster made in 1936. The rotors looked like scaled-up 4B trombone rotors to me. The bends were not as tight as they came in and out of the rotors as most European horns and the other thing I have never seen on any other rotor is; the bearing plates had bushings pressed in the center on both sides. The bearing plate itself was brass but you could see a bushing of a different material if you looked closely.

[EdFirth]

A couple years ago I was playing for the grand opening of a WaWa store. At the break a guy came over to chat and it turned out that he had been in the West Point Band which he verified by naming most of the career guys who were still there but at the end of their time while I was there in the early 70's. He was also at the first "Tuba Christmas" when they played head tunes in front of Radio City. He mentioned Bill Bell, Harvey, and Herb Wekselblatt among the players. Anyhow he noticed that I was playing a King tuba and commented that they were good horns so I told him about the rotary King that I have. He was very familiar with them and said that the valves were made by Alexander.Anyway he was a hoot to talk with. He played with the Dukes of Dixieland at one time too. His name is Joe Haneman and hopefully he's still with us. Ed

[EdFirth]

I'm looking at the ad for the "Monster Size Basses" and the Bb's are listed at .750 while the C's are .687.Then on another ad about the Rotary Valve Symphony Model Orchestra Bass(the really tall one that some call a Pit Model) it's only offered in Bb but both bore sizes are available. Does anyone have or know of a .687 bore Monster Bass out there? Also, this may be urban legend or whatever, but I've always heard that there were only around 100 Bb's Don't know if that means 3 And 4 valve plus Pit models, and some have said7,othes have said 17 C's. Does anyone out there know for sure the actual numbers? Of course not counting "one of" later custom orders? The sure do make a uniquely beautiful sound. Ed

[Dan Schultz]

I'm looking at the ad for the "Monster Size Basses" and the Bb's are listed at .750 while the C's are .687.Then on another ad about the Rotary Valve Symphony Model Orchestra Bass(the really tall one that some call a Pit Model) it's only offered in Bb but both bore sizes are available. Does anyone have or know of a .687 bore Monster Bass out there? Also, this may be urban legend or whatever, but I've always heard that there were only around 100 Bb's Don't know if that means 3 And 4 valve plus Pit models, and some have said7,othes have said 17 C's. Does anyone out there know for sure the actual numbers? Of course not counting "one of" later custom orders? The sure do make a uniquely beautiful sound. Ed

As many times as I've looked at those King ads... I never noticed that the .750" bore ones were only BBb.

Yeah... I like the way mine plays. It is a unique big, fat, round sound. My BBb .750" bore 'monster' has a horribly flat 3rd valve. The circuit does a double loop at the bottom. I made a new slide and the pitch on good now. Of course, I kept the original slides intact if I ever want to sell the horn. I sometimes wonder what the engineers were thinking on some of these horn. With the slides pulled out, the 3rd valve could have been used for a 2-3 combination!

[Frank Ortega]

I too, had heard along the way that the rotors were made by Alexander. I think Don Butterfield had said that.

Also, Joe Hanneman is alive and well and still running parades in Manhattan. A great guy with some great stories!

-Frank

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Posed this question to Chris from the HN White website--here's his response-FYI-mark

Hello Mark,

I am not sure where people come up with some things. How about they provide the evidence that the valves came form Germany?
HN White from the 1920's on had its own machine shop and could make just about anything.

Chris Charvat
http://www.hnwhite.com" target="_blank
Join us on facebook at The H. N. White Company LLC!

[bort]

I always assumed made in the USA, because of the unique valve paddles. If they bought the valves from Germany, why not the paddles too?

[Ken Herrick]

As bloke mentioned in the post about Marks' contra EEb , the valve assembly on what was (?) concluded to be a Cerveny looked very similar to those on the Kings and I thought so too.

In 67 I purchased a Cerveny from Fred Gottlieb which he said King had used as a pattern for the monster rotaries. It was not what we would now call cloning. The valve assemblies on it and my King were not the same at all. The Cerveny was pre 1900 and the King about 1929 according to a former HN White worker. I had also owned a 3valve monster while in high school - up to 65.

The 4 v had come from Ohio State U which had been one of six OSU had, according to Ken Hughes, which were purchased prior to an overseas tour by the OSU band.

From what I was told by HN White when I wanted to purchase parts about 64 they made everything but had disposed of the tooling.

The former employee thought about 100 of the .750" bore monsters (all BBb he thought) had been built and only about 12 to 15 of the smaller bore CCs.

I only had direct contact with 1 of the CC models - the smaller bell version and as near as I can recall the only difference in the valves was the bore size.

Maybe Dan could compare rotors.

I know this is not "conclusive" on things but is the best info I have.

On a side note, Bill Bell told me that Mienl Weston actually used his King as the pattern for the MW Bell model CC which was a "copy" with only minor mods to improve on the original.

Oh yes, the King bearing plates did have a bronze insert which could be replaced.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
From a 1932 White/King catalog featuring French Horns but detailing how they make rotors -go to page3-------courtesy of 'Horn-U-Copia'---FYI-
Mark

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5-_7UC ... view?pli=1" target="_blank

[Dan Schultz]

Yup. I've talked with several guys who are 'in the know' of the goings on at King during the later days of the rotary tuba production. A few days ago I spoke with George McCracken and he was at King during the later production period and although he did not make rotors personally... he knew they were being made at King.

My King rotary .750" bore 'monster' has a serial number indicating it was manufactured in 1941. That was seventy-three years ago. If the worker who built my horn was twenty-years-old at the time... he would be ninety-three years old now!

I'm satisfied that King made their own rotary tuba valves.

[bort]

In that case, I sure wish they'd give it a try again!

[bisontuba]

Hi-
And this, from a 1936 HN White/King catalog...courtesy of the 'HNWHITE' website...FYI...mark

[J.c. Sherman]

As I'm from the home of King, I've confirmed through miriad sources that the King Monster rotors were indeed made here in Cleveland. The templates, as I've been told, were used for the 5th valve on the Conn 5XJ tubas.

When all's in good working order, they are magnificent and fast as hell.

[Ken Herrick]

[quote="
When all's in good working order, they are magnificent and fast as hell.[/quote]

THAT is a major point that made me look for a King when I was in HS. Summer of 62, I was heading into HS soph year and was at U of IL summer camp. The top player had a Carl Fisher BBb 4 rv tuba (like a Mira 186) and was dreaming of a King rotary because "the valves are like lightning!)

I got a 3 banger monster a couple years later then after I started with Jake at NU my 4v. Jake could not believe how fast those valves worked! Compared to the York, well, there was not comparison for fast valve action.

In other ways the King compared very favourably too.

[toobagrowl]

Dunno why some ppl are surprised that King (HN White) made their own rotors. Aren't pistons by their nature more difficult to make? King made some of the best pistons, imo. Seems to me that rotors would be a "piece of cake" to make for the skilled workers at HN White. It is known that many of those skilled workers at the old American factories such as HN White, Frank Holton, JW York, etc were German/Czech immigrants bringing over their knowledge, skill and heritage in making those brass instruments

[Lew]

Here are a couple of photos of the King rotary that I used to own. I no longer have this, so this is the best I can do to show the valves. They don't look like trombone valves to me. I do know that this was the heaviest tuba I have owned. I usually have no problem resting a tuba on my lap for a long practice session, concert, or rehearsal, but I needed my stand for this monster.

[Frank Ortega]

I've always been curious why King would change their ferrule design for this model of tuba?
It's the only model King tuba I've seen this type of ferrule on.

Any thoughts?

[J.c. Sherman]

Those ferrules were hand made and hand seamed. Custom work for a custom ax.

[Dan Schultz]

Those ferrules were hand made and hand seamed. Custom work for a custom ax.

J C speaks the truth! I don't think there are any common King parts on the model 1291 .750" BBb rotary 'monsters'. Even the bells did not interchange with other Kings.

The .687" rotary Kings shared tubing, crooks, and main bugle parts with the King 1240/41 piston tubas.

Here are a couple of pictures of my 'monster': (The upright bell is not original and was fabricated by me).