The popularity of the sousaphone

[Donn]

Banda.

[eupher61]

nope. Mexican bandas are major players in it. The growing popularity of horn funk,eg Dirty Dozen et al, and the aging boomer population which has more former hs souzie players with disposable income--and wanting to play "jazz" by reading bad charts of the same tin pan alley tunes over and over.

[bort]

What exactly are the numbers? I have no clue what they used to cost, or what they cost now!

[tofu]

Really at it's heart it's just a supply & demand economics question. Back before the internet/ebay people didn't know a lot of stuff sitting in the attic had any value. So stuff would sit up there for years until somebody died and there was an estate sale. There also was a culture of only buying new stuff as it had to be better (cause it's new) or only poor people bought used stuff. That all changed with the advent of ebay/internet which really only took off in the late 90's. People could easily sell as well as poke around on the net and see that stuff like grandpa's funny old York tuba could fetch some quick handy cash. So that unleashed a flood of such finds as by the late 90's - early 2000's as people in mass found the net. So all this pent up supply got sold off over a period of a few years - but after awhile all that pent up supply got sold so supply started to diminish - at the same time a lot of groups like NOLA bands started getting national attention (along with their crazy good sousaphone players) quickly after that the Banda movement and it's feature role of Sousaphones exploded. Being a sousaphone player was starting to get hip. While all this was going on the quality of new sousaphones took a real dive and there was also big leap in new prices. I think the net also brought to light the real quality of a lot of the older horns and this too drove demand which in turn with an ebbing flow of look what I found in the attic supply has driven prices higher as more demand and less supply does.

[Jose the tuba player]

If you look at who is actually winning all the sousaphones its always the same handful of people who often start a bidding war and drive up the price. I think it also depends on the area, here in L.A. fiberglass sousaphones are pushing 1,500 for a "ready to play" which just means they painted it white and put it up for sale. The few sousaphones that pop up on craigslist bellow 1,000 are often gone within a day then put back up by someone else at a higher price. Many re-sellers here know each other so they control prices and you better believe they price gouge you.

[pjv]

Just recently historians have discovered that Verdi, above all, preferred the sousaphone.
Would this have something to do with it?

[iiipopes]

At the time, counting all the horse trading and gasoline, I figured that I was at a slight loss to have @$1500 in my Renolds 'glass souzy. I'm now seeing that I'm not that far upside down on it, especially since I plan on keeping it for awhile.

[Biggs]

- I quit buying anything but 20K for restorations (band director brainwashing...and - since this particular model is crazy-high-priced new, I can sell them for the most after they're restored)

tangent: why is this? I've never been able to figure out how 20Ks became so hyped/desirable or, given the superior playing characteristics (IMO) of other sousaphones, why they became so.

[pjv]

Well to begin with 20K's are real easy (thus cheeper) to get parts for. Theres a lot of 20K's out there and the design hasn't changed substantially over the years. All Conn sousaphones share a lot of the same basic design making many parts interchangeable between models (I used to have a Holton 130. Lovely large horn but not always easy to find parts for). Conn's are pretty tough so they tend to withstand the winds of time. The 20K's a size sous that works well for easy bass playing in larger groups. Last but maybe not least, the short valves attract a lot of people. With these kind of "perks" sales go up.
In general they play well and are an easy blow. It's like cruising in a Cadillac.

For me the big downside is the intonation; high 2d partial E (& sometimes the F), high 3rd p. C&B, low 4th p. F&E, and with many low 6th p. C&B (sometimes D&Db). Thats a lot of out of tune notes! Only the 2nd valve slide is movable and, in my opinion, it's not an easy horn to bend the tuning on these notes to the place where they need to be. (A salesman told me these issues have been dealt with in the new model. Hm...) I own a 40K with the same intonation issues. The 4th valve gives me extra tuning possibility, but because I hate using it (and other valve combi's) for solving any (and soooo many) intonation issues I rarely use this horn anymore.
These are reasons enough for me not to play a 20K, but thats just me. An old King has 100% better intonation, but I happened to find a very nice 14K for €200 (musical needs+pocket book=reality). I had the 1st slide modified to move and use it for lowering the 3rd p. B and raising the 6th p. C&B. Since I don't need to play bass lines in large ensembles I'm more than comfortable with this axe.

[iiipopes]

I had the 1st slide modified to move and use it for lowering the 3rd p. B and raising the 6th p. C&B. Since I don't need to play bass lines in large ensembles I'm more than comfortable with this axe.

Indeed! I have had that done on every souzy that I've had the opportunity to play or own (even borrowed ones - the owner institutions thought it was a great idea and gave permission). Since the upper bow of the first valve circuit is usually about where the left hand wants to naturally lay, it works especially well on Conn souzys, and to a lesser extent on Reynolds/Olds; and as stated, it's not really needed on the Kings.

And to comment on the above, unfortunately, even though some of the other makes of souzys may have their advantages, parts is parts, and unless you are blessed to have a tech with a large parts morgue like I am, it can be dicey to invest in a souzy other than a Conn or a King, especially if you play out a lot, meaning a lot more exposure to the possible ding or bump that could knock something awry, or live miles away from a good tech.

And most of the 20K problems are from that danged valve block. A 38K has the same bugle, but with the standard valve block, and is a lot better on intonation, but definitely needs the upper 1st valve slide to be adjustible.

A thought just occurred to me: intonation on the partials is dependent on the balance of size and amount of cylindrical tubing to conical tubing and where it is placed in the instrument; to a lesser degree the bracing as that may affect nodes and anti-nodes. The helicons, and possibly the raincatchers, as opposed to the bell-front souzys, tend to have longer main tuning slide circuits to make up for the shorter effective length of the bugle. When I put a shorter bell on my 186, and Dan made me a longer tuning slide to compensate, the signature "flat fifth partials" almost completely went away. Has anybody compared the relative intonation of the helicon and raincatcher versions of the various Conn instruments to the bell-front souzy to see if this works with them also? The problem is that even if it does, I don't see a way to incorporate any modifications of that sort on a standard souzy.

[Donn]

For me the big downside is the intonation; high 2d partial E (& sometimes the F), high 3rd p. C&B, low 4th p. F&E, and with many low 6th p. C&B (sometimes D&Db).

Is it too early in the morning, or is this off by one on some of the partial numbers?

The flat F is just below the bass clef, with no valves, am I right? Which I have been calling 3rd partial.

I consider it a sort if miracle if there isn't a flat 5th partial (B through D in the middle of the bass clef), so I wouldn't really hold that against the 20K. The rest of your list seems to me to be lower range notes that are as much up to the player as the tuba. So for me, it would look pretty good, if it weren't for that F.

[pjv]

SORRY; too early for ME.
A-hum, it should've read;
high 2d partial E (& sometimes the F), high 3rd p. C&B, low 3rd p. F&E, and with many low 5th p. C&B (sometimes D&Db). With my 14K I use the modified 1st slide to lowering the 3rd p. B and raising the 5th p. C&B.

I've taken my 40K to two different repairmen and both claimed that because of the age of the horn (the "charts" log it in at 1923) that they couldn't make a movable slide on the top loop of the first valve plumbing. It was long ago so I really don't remember the reason.

Yeah, that F, and the E, and the C and B below it. And the low E. Intonation IS up to the player, and this player says I don't except playing gigs on tubas that need this much work. Really, I've heard some real fine sousaphone players at real fine gigs all thinking they're playing in tune; but they're not. Give the 20K a usable main tuning slide tuner or the "right" dent and maybe it'll be fun to listen to. If I had iron chops I wouldn't be whining, but I don't so I seek my refuge with a more forgiving sousaphone.

[Donn]

I've sure heard that flat F, coming from someone else's 20K. I'm pretty sure I don't have that problem with my 40K, though, despite very ordinary playing ability, and I recall hearing the same from other 38K and 40K owners. It would be interesting to know the early history of the 20K vs 38K - did school band directors etc. choose the 20K on their own, or did Conn more or less make that choice for them?

Sharp 3rd partial C and B is kind of a new one on me. I mean, of course you're guaranteed to have this problem if you tune each of the three valves exactly to their interval -- so 3rd valve is an in-tune minor 3rd for example -- but that problem is common to all brass instruments with multiple valves. It's funny that of all tubas, these valve notes would be sharp on this one, where the open horn is commonly flat on the same partial.

[iiipopes]

I've taken my 40K to two different repairmen and both claimed that because of the age of the horn (the "charts" log it in at 1923) that they couldn't make a movable slide on the top loop of the first valve plumbing. It was long ago so I really don't remember the reason.

It's because it was made before Conn started using smooth brass for outer as well as inner slides; the outer tubing in the circuit does not have a smooth bore to accept an inner slide.