Best of the Best: Trombones?

[Bob Kolada]

The oversized valve section was Benge's answer to the thayer valve and it worked, such a simple solution I don't understand why no one else does it (perhaps someone is doing it now). They were basically Kings with a gold brass bell and the oversized valve set.

The only ones I know of that DON'T are the Kings.

[ken k]

The oversized valve section was Benge's answer to the thayer valve and it worked, such a simple solution I don't understand why no one else does it (perhaps someone is doing it now). They were basically Kings with a gold brass bell and the oversized valve set.

The only ones I know of that DON'T are the Kings.

Well let me say that back in the 80s and 90s Benge was the only one doing it. I think most of the boutique valves like thayer and hagaman, etc now use larger bores but i don't know about your standard Bach 36, 42 or 50 with a rotor valve, Yamaha and/or Conn, etc.

Admitedly I have not looked at trombone specs recently.

k

[Bob Kolada]

The Bachs are still messed up , but the Conns, Yamahas,... all have the one step bigger valve attachment. Which seems more natural than evolutionary- the valve IS a bit further down than the slide.

[martin90]

I would recommend the Holton TR602, Yamaha 354 or the Bach 300. Try to go for an established brand even if it is more expensive than the newer brands, at least there will be no compromise on quality.

[tbn.al]

Holton TR602, Yamaha 354, Bach 300.

Huh? These models are all student line trombones.

[pjv]

I didn't quite catch "what" you want to play on trombone but these are my 2 cents.

Trombones, above all brass instruments can be quite inexpensive second hand. This opens the door to a lot of experimenting without having to give out all that much $$$. So go ahead, buy a nice King 3B. Buy a Bach 36. And if you can find it, a Conn 78H. These are 3 different horns, the 36 and the 78H being roughly the same size, the 3B being smaller than the 2 a for mentioned but tad larger than the Conn 6H & 48H (also nice jazz/pop horns). Try them out. Try out other horns. Find out what you like. After that you can contemplate giving out more bucks on a modern horn and compare it to what you got. Vintage horns, when kept well, can often be resold for what you paid out. Wipe down the slide on the inside and the outside after every daily usage and run a snake through the slide once a week. This will help eliminate the excess flora and fauna trying to move in at the bottom bow of the slide. And always use distilled water. Calcium's murder on slide action.

I personally like the 78h (.522 - .525, depending on the year), because of it's sound versatility; not too big, not too small. I have a lovely '50's 88H as well but I just can't get into that sound for a lot of my work. Too much sonority, not enough bite. Having said that, there are enough cats that use a .547 bore for everything.

Modular trombones are very popular. Shires has a nice .525 bore set up, with & without F-attachment, which can take a small shank leadpipe and a large bore leadpipe.

Red brass bells. I love practicing with them and they're great for keeping your sound round at higher volumes but they can really bust your balls when it's your intention to stick out or rise above the group (like in a solo). Yellow brass will get you everywhere. Red brass is nice when you know what you want it for and the results you're looking for, and when you know that it won't make your life more difficult whenever you need a brighter or an edgier sound.
eh, my 3 cents.

[tbn.al]

I would be willing to bet that in the three years that have elapsed sine the first post he has either fulfilled his trombone ambitions or given up entirely.

[ArnoldGottlieb]

As a 'doubler, posts like these, old or new, are very welcome for me. thanks Thanks for the information!

[tbn.al]

+1

[tbn.al]

Right on the mark Joe. I do think the reverence for the older Elkhart Conn and Mt. Vernon Bach tenors is deserved. The playing qualities, sans valve, are at the high end of the spectrum in my opinion. Most tenor players only use the valve on a consistant basis for the B anyway so the valve issues are not at the top of the list. However when you talk about the bass trombones this changes. The open wrap, axial flow, short stroke, big bore valve sections make a huge difference in my overall feeling about any bass trombone. The older bass trombones, when measured in this manner, just don't stack up to the ones with the newer valve setups. The ideal may be to put Hagmanns or some of the other open valve systems on a treasured old bell and slide. The first guy that I knew to do that was Willis Howell whom you can hear on the Spiritual to the Bone recordings. Wow! I just wish I knew of a repair tech somewhere in the western hemisphere that could perform this needed service.

[georgebutler]

Hello from Tallinn, Estonia! If you are on a budget and looking to buy new, I can recommend these models, all of which I have tried and purchased for the children's (ages 8-18) music school where I teach: The John Packer music store in Taunton, England commissioned the fabulous British maker Michael Rath to design a line of "intermediate quality" trombones as a part of its stencilled offerings. These are made in China. Mick flies there periodically to oversee productions--no, I don't know how often--and to train the factory workers. JP/Rath 230 is the classic straight small bore (.500") that students usually start on, but of course it can be used as a lead horn in a jazz band situation too. There is a straight (no F-attachment) medium-bore (.525") model, the JP/Rath 231 that is a nice third trombone for a jazz band of four or five players, or in a commercial setting such as a Broadway show pit or even a rock band. Its sister is the JP/Rath 331, the same medium bore .525" with F-attachment. This is the one I buy for my intermediate students, eighth graders through tenth grade. (The medium bore models, like the professional Bach 36B and the discontinued Conn 79H and the step-up Bach Omega all use a small-shank mouthpiece.) The JP/Rath 332 is the large bore (.547", like the 88H or 42B) symphonic model. These are probably the best of the "economy" instruments, and I for one would not be embarrassed to show up to a gig with one. I enjoy playing them, and they have survived school use quite well. In the United States, the biggest John Packer dealer is probably Dan Fischer at DF Music in Naperville, Illinois. Dillon's also carries a couple of models. http://www.rathtrombones.com/instrument ... JPRath.htm" target="_blank There is also an alto trombone, a single-valve bass trombone, and a double French horn. (Rath got his start at Paxman, working there for ten years making horns.) I don't know anything about the John Packer/Sterling collaboration on the euphonium, but that might interest someone too. Hope that helps! --George Butler, Lasnamäe Muusikakool in Tallinn

[georgebutler]

I would be willing to bet that in the three years that have elapsed sine the first post he has either fulfilled his trombone ambitions or given up entirely.

Oh, good grief! I just wasted half an hour answering a four-year-old question. I guess I got so excited, because there was FINALLY a question that *I* could answer.

Ha!

Thanks for pointing that out to me! I'll try to look at the dates next time.

Sill, if anyone ever stumbles across this thread in the future, this John Packer/Michael Rath collaboration has produced some reasonably-priced and nice trombones.

--George in Tallinn

[iiipopes]

Between 1986 and 1988 I played in a local community band that needed a lead trombone. I purchased a used early '70's King 3B for $125 and a Bach 12C and played lead bone. It was funny, because when I went into the store to purchase a trombone, all the staff wanted to sell me, from the salesman to the owner, was a new Yamaha. I insisted they go back and find the oldest used horns they had. I sent them back twice. They actually looked embarrassed to bring out the 3B, which except for some lacquer wear and discoloration, was in perfect shape, although the classic brown faux-alligator case had seen better days. They were puzzled when I said that was exactly the horn I was after. They simply could not fathom that I would want an old King that had "the tone" rather than a shiny new unproven horn! I later sold it, because I prefer tuba. But the horn was a better horn than I would ever get the most out of, so off it went for a tidy profit.

I agree that a .525 with an F attachment is very versatile.

The trombone player in my jazz band recently purchased a Getzen. It is very smooth. It doesn't necessarily "sing" like a 2B, although he can make it sing with the best of them; it doesn't have the edge of a 3B, and it is not quite as "big" in tone as the larger bore models, but if the rest of the line is like his dual bore, Getzen is a definite contender, as it has leadpipe options.

I don't know why more companies don't make more dual bore models. That would solve the tendency of high F to go sharp. And as set forth above, simply using a larger bore F-attachment would make all the expensive, convoluted complex valve systems redundant.

The thing most people forget when purchasing a trombone is that the leadpipe into the inner slide can completely change the character of the horn, so that is as much a consideration as the bore or bell flare.

If all a person was playing was lead bone, Yamaha makes a model with a short slide that only goes to 5th position, the YSL350C. The attachment is actually an ascending whole step valve so Bb is open, Bnat is trigger with a long 2nd, and C is triggered. It was designed to help young players hold the horn and not let it drop, but I can see for a lead player it could be handy, especially in confined spaces, and it is dual-bore, to boot!

The post about trombones are relatively inexpensive, so experiment - indeed! And not just with horns: mix-and-match bells and slides, just like we do with tubas (I resemble that remark).

One do-it-all trombone? No. Between thirty and forty years ago, the fad in the electric guitar world was to try to do that: one do-it-all instrument that would effectively have the best attributes of both Strats and Les Pauls. Once the physics of how guitar strings actually vibrate and how magnetic pickups caught up, that was abandoned. If a person plays different parts in different ensembles, it is better to have separate instruments. Any attempt to have a do-it-all instrument will result in performance issues when the horn is doing anything besides playing 2nd stand in a concert band.

The other thing when purchasing used is to inspect the "socks" on the inner slides very carefully to make sure the nickel is intact. If the nickel is worn, the trombone is finished.

[CunarTheBOSSS]

If you're doing jazz or stuff where you don't need a larger bore or trigger, I would say King 2B/3B or the Yamaha Custom Z 3B size. If you want a great all around horn, I've seen and heard a lot of great things about the Bach 42...

[Fratto]

I used to play with a guy who had a '69 3B. That horn played like a dream.

At this point I've got a 100 year old Holton Special that sounds great but has obvious tuning issues in ensembles.
I've got a mid-60s Olds Ambassador and a 50s King 1306. I can never decide which I like more and often waver. Right now, it's the Olds.

My bass is a dual-trigger Getzen Eterna from around 2001. I've never regretted having rotors instead of thayers. The horn sounds great. I always have the urge to find a new bass, but always go back to my Getzen. An old Conn bass would be something I'd like, but can never find at the right time financially.

[Bob Kolada]

Does yours say Dave Taylor on the bell?

[ken k]

i know this is a four year old thread but allow me to vent a little. I don't understand why all the manufacturers are pushing .547 horns on kids as "step up models" Most kids can't fill these big horns unless they are practicing regularly and seriously. Usually they just sound very muddy with slushy/woofy articulation.
IMHO the perfect horn for most high school kids is a 3B with or without f attachment. They work in the jazz band, the marching band, the concert band (where they won't sound like euphoniums), musical pit, small jazz combo/dixie. I am surprised there are not any Chinese copies of these horns out there. Most of the Chinese horns seem to be .547 bores.

done with my soap box, thank you....
kk