Linkage conversion

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

I thought I might be getting rusty with the "Box-O-Buttons" so its time to get a workout and post something on the ol tubenet.

I realize that many of us tuba players at one time or another play/played bass trombone, some of us also dabble with the contrabass trombone. Being all to familiar with the complexity of levers and linkage that is so common on our horns, both Bass trombone and tuba, I thought it would be fun to show one of the linkage conversions I recently did to a bass-bone in order to improve its mechanical function and make it a bit more comfortable to operate. Who knows maybe the improvement will help find it a new home.





This is the duel rotor section of an Olds Bass that is probably about forty years old. The original linkage shown above is interesting (also heavy and noisey) but compared to what is currently available, it really sucked!

I scrapped the works and started over. Its dependent valve design made it a little tricky to work out but after racking my brains for an afternoon, I came up with something I thought would look cool and function as well as anything currently available.


I do not use that plastic RC car crap because I think it looks really stupid but thats just me. I know how some folks like Rick Denny enjoy working on there own instruments and thats great but having been trained in an "old school" way, I don't know how to make things any other way then to build it to last and make it like I mean it. Must be the German background in me, can't help it.



This forces me at times to do things the hard way, besides the connectors, all of the parts were made from scratch (bar and rod stock). The job took about one and a half very long days to perform all the machining, brazing and polishing prior to running it down to the local plate shop with another set of linkage I built for a Bach 50B.



Shown above is the Bach after preassembly was completed. It also had a crap set of junk someone put on it after doing a rather interesting (not good) just interesting job of converting it from stacked dependent valves to in-line independent valves. Having made sure it works the way it should, it will be taken apart and prepared to be nickel plated with the other parts we have lined up.



The final product after nickel plating. I do about three of these type of jobs a year and try to keep it at that, no more. This is because even though they are a challenge and fun to do, they take me away from the other more profitable work waiting for me to tend to and after all this is my job. I love to see the interesting projects that get posted now and then on tubenet by other Technicians. Hope you find this post of interest and that it will stimulate some conversation.

Daniel C. Oberloh

Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Saving the world, one horn at a time...

[Rick Denney]

I do not use that plastic RC car crap because I think it looks really stupid but thats just me. I know how some folks like Rick Denny enjoy working on there own instruments and thats great but having been trained in an "old school" way, I don't know how to make things any other way then to build it to last and make it like I mean it. Must be the German background in me, can't help it.

There are workable solutions, and there are elegant solutions. The hobby-shop ball joints are the former. They are not elegant and not intended to be. But they are cheap, durable, and functional. I've never claimed any different.

Not everyone has the money and time to send their tuba to one of the four or five people in the country who can do what you do. All we can do is admire it from a distance. But, in the mean time, we still play and enjoy linkages that don't clatter. One of the reasons my Holton still has lots of dents is that I don't want to be without it for the months that it takes for a real pro to get around to it.

Rick "who doesn't think it's a German thing" Denney

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

German? Probably not, more a thing I picked up from my late Father and reinforced during my days as a silversmith. I do understand all to well Rick The economics are an issue but these instruments are valuable items and I just feel that it is worth the extra expense. I like the cheap factor but I like the look factor more. I sometimes forget myself. Not everyone has lathes and mills and all that soldering and buffing stuff at there disposal. I know the connectors are a little pricey, about $15 each. I still think they are a better choice over plastic parts because plastic stuff though durable over the short haul eventually cracks especially when exposed to petroleum lubrication and wouldn't you know, it always breaks during a performance. I hate that!

Bloke, I want to see that horn when it is done. Let me know how it progresses, including some images please. By the way, that hellicon is really something, how do you do it? Find the time that is. Did you mask and bead-blast it yourself or did Anderson do it for you? The 5th valve is a nice touch but on a hellicon? One of a kind.

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
www.oberloh.com

[Rick Denney]

I know the connectors are a little pricey, about $15 each. I still think they are a better choice over plastic parts because plastic stuff though durable over the short haul eventually cracks especially when exposed to petroleum lubrication and wouldn't you know, it always breaks during a performance. I hate that!

No argument that the metal ball ends look better. But I can buy all the parts necessary to convert an entire instrument for the cost of just one of them.

As to the plastic not being durable, that's where I think my experience may exceed yours. Yes, some plastic gets attacked by petroleum, but not all plastic. Yes, the white plastic Miraphone ball ends were dreadful and became brittle in just a few years. But I've had Du-Bro plastic ball ends on my Miraphone for about 15 years, and the plastic seems no different than the new ones I just installed on my B&S. I've installed them on other instruments at least that long ago, and still am in contact with one or two of their owners. Theirs haven't failed, either. Two of them play professionally, and their tubas see a lot more action than do mine.

Of course, metal can wear and malfunction, too. After all, the clattery linkages we are replacing are made of metal. Plastic wears better than metal in many cases, and is self-lubricating in ways metal is not. And, of course, the parts that are likely to break on ball links (the pin or bolt that holds the ball), are robust and steel with the Du-Bro linkages.

It's not a choice between cheap and good, unless "beautiful" is a requirement for "good". Your work has earned you a reputation for beauty, and I admire that as much as anybody. I might even pay for it from time to time. But that doesn't mean it's the only quality solution. I'll stick with good engineering practice--cheap, durable, and functional. Beauty is a luxury to be enjoyed when one can afford it and is willing to wait for it.

Rick "who probably would not have responded had the word 'crap' not appeared in the first post--let alone specifically associated with me" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Rick, believe it or not, I agree with you on this one.

I did a side-by-side comparison with the "new" Miraphone uniballs (at 10x the each, I might add) ball and the Du-Bros. I found that the Du-Bros, while quite a bit "uglier", had a distinct advantage over the Miraphones--they were adjustable. And they're very durable. I hard-soldered and filled the holes in the spatula arms and re-bored and tapped them to fit the 4-40 fixing bolts and machined the linkage arms from brass rod, but I could've probably gotten by with using the locknuts supplied with the links and used plain threaded rod with equally functional results. I suppose I could've soldered a 4-40 threaded rod into the balls to get rid of the socket-head screw--maybe someday. I suppose that magnesium or titanium for the connecting rods might also be somewhat lighter.

But the Du-Bros are cheap and durable and hard to beat.

FWIW, things are slightly less "ugly" if you use the "short" version of the links (DuBro part 2141)..

I suppose the links could be painted, but why bother?

[Dan Schultz]

I found that the Du-Bros, while quite a bit "uglier"

Naw... here's ugly!



BUT... it plays really goooood! Finished slinging it together this morning and am going to use it for a three-hour gig tonight! Who knows? I might take it apart Saturday morning and build something else. Gimme some old junk parts, a hacksaw, a roll of solder... and step aside! Hey Sam... do you recognize the bell?

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Dan that is indeed an ugly horn.

Sorry Rick, "crap" was not directed at you but was my crude, blue collar way to describe the linkage on the two bass trombones. Your work is great, just not what I am accustomed to dealing with.

The Du-bros work fine and it is good to know they have a good track record, I can't say the same for a lot of the other plastic connectors I have seen. It would be great if they could streamline their product a little, maybe it would then be able to find a place in my cold, black heart.



Not the quickest action but they work nicely for old linkage.

The thing about the older metal linkage that I don't understand is why so many folks don't just get them tightened up? I have done that lots of times on many instruments with great success. Maybe its just a thing about regular maintenance that we all like to avoid as it is not always convenient, there again is that $$$ thing. I for one can be bad about that with my own instruments. Its like the mechanic who drives the roughest looking car in the lot. Its good to hear about your experience with the durability and the functionality of the less costly stuff. I guess maybe I just see it as similar to putting $50 wheels on a $250,000 automobile. They do the same thing only with a different look.



The owner of this Alexander did not care for the look ether. I will be fixing this puppy up in the near future.

Daniel C. Oberloh

[jacobg]

Mr. Oberloh, do you have any pictures of the new bass trombone paddles viewed at an angle? Why did the owner want to keep the paddles both thumb operated instead of having the second valve paddle under the middle finger?
Regarding antique linkages, aren't the clock springs, s-shaped linkages, round paddles, etc. often the most ornate, engraved parts of these horns? It would seem a shame to part with them for that reason alone.

[Bandmaster]

Mr. Oberloh, do you have any pictures of the new bass trombone paddles viewed at an angle? Why did the owner want to keep the paddles both thumb operated instead of having the second valve paddle under the middle finger?
Regarding antique linkages, aren't the clock springs, s-shaped linkages, round paddles, etc. often the most ornate, engraved parts of these horns? It would seem a shame to part with them for that reason alone.

I am the "former" owner. I traded the horn to Dan in exchange for some of the work he will be doing on the restoration of my Holton 345. It used to belong to Cal State Fullerton and was donated to my youth band by someone who purchased it from a music department instrument auction. The horn is in very good condition, since we wound up not using it on the field, but those old triggers were really hard on the thumb. Stiff and not very responsive. Now they look really nice, and Dan says they work great. So, if somebody wants to buy it from Dan, the profits will pay part of my bill.

[Dan Schultz]

Dan,

I might (if I can find them...??) have a couple of .750" bore (close enough to .734"...??) cylindrical 4th valve sousa tubing branches - that are specifically curved weird to fit within the "shape" of the sousaphone body - laying around somewhere. If I can find them, do you want them?...

Yes!... I WOULD like to have the 4th valve wrap if you can find it. One thing though... the ports on the 4th valve exit at about 2 O'clock. Would the 'stock' wrap work?

Yes... me and Mr. Dent Machine are getting to be best of buddies That Conn sousa was scrap In fact, I was using the original main branch to this horn for patching material! The one you see on this horn is actually off of a Buescher Eb sousa. Parts is parts

[Dan Schultz]

Yes!... I WOULD like to have the 4th valve wrap if you can find it. One thing though... the ports on the 4th valve exit at about 2 O'clock. Would the 'stock' wrap work?

If I can find that stuff, you'll have the wonderful opportunity of tearing all of that back off, chopping those exit ports down to about 1/4 inch or so, and teasing them (with a tight-fitting dent ball and a dent hammer) back to angles that match the rest of the valveset. Then, you can splice on (braze or lead solder) small angled knuckles (pieces that you cut out of #1 or #2 crooks, etc.) that "send" the tubing where you wished it had gone in the first place.

I have a Conn .734" bore 4V cluster (just like yours - with a spliced-on #2 as the #4) that I did quite a while ago and then threw into a box...If I can find that box, I'll send you a pic to show you what I mean.

Oh, yeah... I can picture what you are talking about. The stuff I had worked OK the way the knuckles were but it would certainly look and lot nicer the way you mention.

[Rick Denney]

Dan that is indeed an ugly horn.

Sorry Rick, "crap" was not directed at you but was my crude, blue collar way to describe the linkage on the two bass trombones. Your work is great, just not what I am accustomed to dealing with.

No problem. My work is not, however, "great". It is cheap, durable, and functional. You guys do the great.

Of course, even ugly stuff can be made to look much uglier by the ham-fisted among us. I make no pretence to doing pretty work, but I sure hope my linkages look a hell of a lot better than do those bent-up contraptions on that Alex. (These are on my B&S.)



As to why people don't take care of their stuff, that defies explanation. But two points come to mind: 1.) I don't have to be a technician (or visit a technician) to tighten up my ugly plastic links, and 2.) I usually buy instruments used, and sometimes well used, and I get the bad maintenance of the previous owner.

Rick "who dislikes short-cut solutions, but for whom this innovation has proven itself" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

My work is not, however, "great". It is cheap, durable, and functional. You guys do the great stuff.....

I agree with you, Rick. If my stuff was 'perfect' I probably could not afford any of it. For less that $150, the Du-Bros links and cheap Ferree's springs made this Zeiss a very playable horn instead of the POS it was. The whole job took less that four hours and the customer was totally satisfied.



Dan 'a firm beleiver in being conservative' Schultz

[joshwirt]

I'll chime in on this one as it's a subject that's been on my mind for quite some time now.

My 'vintage' B&S was in need of a valve conversion. A previous owner of this amazing instrument opted for the less expensive, yet viable option of plastic ball-and-socket linkages. These were probably pretty good a few years ago, but over time, they had just worn out.

I seriously considered going the Du-Bro route after seeing them on a friends older B&M F tuba and then once Rick Denney converted his B&S. But, I was a little too afraid of breaking out my Dremel and really screwing up.

So.......

2 days ago, I called up local repair genius/instrument craftsman/resident tuba guru, Mike Johnson and asked him to replace the linkages with quality UniBal parts.





This is an instrument that gets played daily and I'd like to keep it for years to come, so I thought of it as an investment. Mike agreed with me.

His craftsmanship on the installation and fabrication of custom parts was astounding. I spent the afternoon in his shop watching a true master of his trade going at it. I now see why come here to Mike from all over the UK. He is full of innovative ideas that I am truly looking forward to see come alive in the future.

Happy Holidays to all. Time for this tuba player to sleep.

Josh

[TubaTodd]

Dan that is indeed an ugly horn.

Sorry Rick, "crap" was not directed at you but was my crude, blue collar way to describe the linkage on the two bass trombones. Your work is great, just not what I am accustomed to dealing with.

No problem. My work is not, however, "great". It is cheap, durable, and functional. You guys do the great.

Of course, even ugly stuff can be made to look much uglier by the ham-fisted among us. I make no pretence to doing pretty work, but I sure hope my linkages look a hell of a lot better than do those bent-up contraptions on that Alex. (These are on my B&S.)



As to why people don't take care of their stuff, that defies explanation. But two points come to mind: 1.) I don't have to be a technician (or visit a technician) to tighten up my ugly plastic links, and 2.) I usually buy instruments used, and sometimes well used, and I get the bad maintenance of the previous owner.

Rick "who dislikes short-cut solutions, but for whom this innovation has proven itself" Denney

I love DIY type of projects. I'm addicted to TV shows of that nature. In any event, I've looked over your linkage conversion on your website MANY times. I am very impressed. I wish you had that site when I was in high school (10 years ago.....my god has it been that long?...just about). We had 2 rotary tubas both of which needed some work. We had a Meinl Weston 20 (something like that with a detachable bell). It had that old S linkage. It was a decent horn, but needed some serious linkage work. They were slow and sometimes did not work AT ALL. A simple linkage conversion would have done wonders.

Question

I wonder if using that brass tubing to cover the threaded part of the linkage helps in the longevity and durability of DIY linkage. I noticed that the linkage on the tuba they Oberloh was working on did NOT have the brass tubing. The brass tubing that you used helps make the linkage look finished and gives it a quality look

Keep up the good work!

[Dan Schultz]

Question I wonder if using that brass tubing to cover the threaded part of the linkage helps in the longevity and durability of DIY linkage. I noticed that the linkage on the tuba they Oberloh was working on did NOT have the brass tubing. The brass tubing that you used helps make the linkage look finished and gives it a quality look. Keep up the good work!

Inside the brass tubing is #4-40 all-thread rod. The brass tubing just there to provide a more 'finished' look. Also... the bends in the connecting rods that some of the posts show are not necessary unless it is done because of clearance issues. The force vector is a straight line from bearing to bearing without regard to the rod configuration.

[Chuck(G)]

Art is nice, but it seems that tarting up a tuba is a waste of aesthetic good sense. Most tubas are built to be utilitarian, not art works.

Engraving on most modern tubas tends to be rather plain; the manufacturer slaps a coat of clear lacquer or plates the whole affair, which makes the thing look a bit less like a cross between a laundry boiler and a steam engine. To the layman, a tuba looks like--a tuba and they all seem to look pretty much the same.

Where's the ornamentation? How abouit the cloisonne bell decoration? Gilding, purfling?

How about something to compare with one of these:

[Chuck(G)]

Chuck,

LOL!

That ain't Art.... that's sick! My faux Rococo eyes are spinning........

Aw Mo, that's pretty tame. Bet you never did an organ console like this:



(It's the 1675 Todini at the Met)

http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/v ... =89.4.2929

I've yet to see a sousaphone that depitcs the Triumph of Galatea..

[choisy]

Salute to Mr. Daniel C. Oberloh and Dan Schultz
My Taiwan Tuba friends and me in Hong Kong always watching and discuss those brass repair work pictures you did and we feel you guys are so great in US making such beautiful and professional job! Like God of Reapir Brass !
In Asia maybe only Yamaha is doing something similiar.....but never show to public ( maybe due to business secret or artist made )
we are so excited and beocme educated by you guys, since like China, they only do the copy and low grade brass instrument for short term money. Not wise at all.

Hope we can have more excellent repair project can see in both of your brass repair web site !

Thank you so much !!!!

[KarlMarx]

bass trombone "super bone"

Something like this one?:


Found it way down this page:
http://www.bassethoundmusic.com/hardware.htm

Carolus Marximus Orientandus