Why not start them on a CC?

Benjamin · Post by **Benjamin** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:47 pm

Ok, I've got a question for any of you highly educated people. From what I've seen and learned more collage and pro. bands prefer to use a CC instead of a BBb. My question is why not just start the kids on a CC since they are going to need to know how to use it later

Benjamin.

fpoon · Post by **fpoon** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:00 am

I think it's all about playing sousaphone...

That and if they play Bb's, the tuba players can ask the baritone players how to finger a note (provided the baritone players read bass clef)...

And so when the kids have to ask the director how to finger a note, he doesn't have to stop and think...

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:05 am

Perhaps because Sousaphones and Marching Tubas are only in BBb, and it is expected in the US that the tuba player will march with one of them while in high school. Also perhaps because it is much harder to find a beater 3 valve CC that would be comparable to the beater 3 valve BBb that many of us started on. I for one would be wary of putting a $6,000 CC in the hands of a 5th or 6th grader. The middle school I student teach at bought 3 brand new 4/4 Cerveny BBb 4 valve rotary tubas about 3-4 years ago. 2 are in rough condition, and 1 already looks like it needs a complete overhaul; there are so many deep dents throughout it. Some of it is carelessness

, but some of it is just the fact that a 11 yr old will wind up dropping or banging the tuba sooner or later; its inevitable. Why do you think they don't give them driver's licenses?

phoenix · Post by **phoenix** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:31 am

I started on tuba in 4th grade tubachris, that's when our program starts. Our string program i think starts in 2nd grade.

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:39 am

TUBACHRIS85 wrote:
MartyNeilan wrote:Perhaps because Sousaphones and Marching Tubas are only in BBb, and it is expected in the US that the tuba player will march with one of them while in high school. Also perhaps because it is much harder to find a beater 3 valve CC that would be comparable to the beater 3 valve BBb that many of us started on. I for one would be wary of putting a $6,000 CC in the hands of a 5th or 6th grader. The middle school I student teach at bought 3 brand new 4/4 Cerveny BBb 4 valve rotary tubas about 3-4 years ago. 2 are in rough condition, and 1 already looks like it needs a complete overhaul; there are so many deep dents throughout it. Some of it is carelessness , but some of it is just the fact that a 11 yr old will wind up dropping or banging the tuba sooner or later; its inevitable. Why do you think they don't give them driver's licenses?
Your schools start a music program THAT early?
Thats just dangurous for the instrument, for the younger kids not really knowing the true value of such expensive equipment. At least they dont give them the more expensive ones. Here, our music program starts at 6th grade, and up, but NEVER that early, unless private, or the kid is a prodegy.

-tubachris
(who see a little kid, dropping a brand new $6000 Tuba, and walking away from it like nothing happened )

Chris:

How old do you think 6th graders usually are when they begin their 6th grade year? Let's see...1st grade=6 yrs., 2nd grade=7 yrs.
hmmm!

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 4:40 am

Benjamin wrote:Ok, I've got a question for any of you highly educated people. From what I've seen and learned more collage and pro. bands prefer to use a CC instead of a BBb. My question is why not just start the kids on a CC since they are going to need to know how to use it later
Benjamin.

Probably no more than 1 out of a 100 high-school tuba players will ever play in anything more than a community band as an adult. Bb tubas are much cheaper than C tubas of similar features and quality (compare Bb and C Miraphone 186's to see what I mean), and this is compounded by the need on a C tuba to have a fifth valve.

But those who do go on to study music in college with an eye towards turning pro will have to know how to play in all keys in any case. Starting them on C would just delay the time when they have to learn Bb, rather than the reverse. And their parents and schools get to buy cheaper tubas before the time when that level of talent has emerged.

Rick "who still doesn't play CC and who doesn't miss it" Denney

Z-Tuba Dude · Post by **Z-Tuba Dude** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:49 am

Also, the mission of most public schools is not to produce professional musicians, but rather to provide all kids (who choose to take advantage of it) with the opportunity to experience making music together, and (hopefully) to develop an appreciation for music (the arts).

Playing CC tuba is in no way necessary to accomplish this task. To have all beginning students play CC, in order to accommodate the infinitesimal number of students who will eventually go on to have professional aspirations, just doesn't make sense. Add to that the extra cost of CC tubas, and the BBb sousaphone factor, and there is really no justification for teaching CC to public school kids.

BVD Press · Post by **BVD Press** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:26 am

How about price. Aren't Bb's generally cheaper than C's?

5th Grade up here in CT.

Stefan · Post by **Stefan** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:26 am

phoenix wrote:
I started on tuba in 4th grade tubachris, that's when our program starts. Our string program i think starts in 2nd grade.

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeze, thats foriegn here.
I guess elementry school students here arent up to standards then, except for playing the Recorder.

I wouldn't say that. There are a lot of school systems that wait until 6th grade. Texas for example - and they have some of the strongest programs in the country. The school system where I teach starts them off in 4th grade. Where I attended school, we started in 5th. I have started kids as complete beginners in 6th grade who were 2 years behind the other kids. By 7th grade, they were just as good as the other 7th graders - if not better. So although I would never utter the thought in front of teachers/my supervisor, I see nothing wrong with starting in 6th grade,

As far as C tubas in the school system, the answer has pretty much been said. The schools are already filled up with Bb horns. C tubas are generally more expensive - although I am sure they could be made to compete with economy Bb's if necessary. Most kids won't ever need to move on to C anyway. And even the ones who go past high school with it don't always move on to C. There are so many other things that an instrumental program needs to buy, spending all kinds of money to replace Bb tubas is just not possible. Even as a tuba player, I would not support it. Bass clarinets, bassoons, bari and tenor sax's, euphoniums, french horns, and the myriad of percussion instruments and accessories, take priority over C tubas.

Stefan

Tubaryan12 · Post by **Tubaryan12** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:51 am

I started on tuba in 4th grade tubachris, that's when our program starts. Our string program i think starts in 2nd grade.

WOW...I feel cheated! When I went to school you couldn't start tuba until the summer between 7th and 8th grade. Strings started in 3rd grade and winds start in 4th.

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:59 am

BVD Press wrote:How about price. Aren't Bb's generally cheaper than C's?

5th Grade up here in CT.

Aren't CC's more expensive because they are marketed & developed for pro's and BBb cheap because they are developed & marketed for beginners?

Maybe if a company saw profit in an affordable, good CC.. Of course the logistic and financial nightmare of changing all the instruments in the schools prevent that from happening.

It's a bit like the discussion of doing away with transposing parts and/or instruments. Not a bad idea, but the cost of reprinting all the scores, retraining all the musicians etc. isn't worth it.

Don't know how your grade system works, but here you start theory & solfÃ¨ge classes when you're 9 and on instrument when you're 10.

elimia · Post by **elimia** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:40 am

Heck, I'm real surprised to hear Marty mention that kids are strarting out that young now. I grew up in Cleveland, TN and I didn't start on baritone until the summer between 6th and 7th grade. Even then, I started out on a ancient Olds baritone horn (a TRUE baritone player, sniff) that looked like it had been hanging on a basement wall somewhere for 80 years. We had some pretty retched 3/4 tubas for the beginners. Good thing too, because we put as much stuff into the bells as came out as kids (heh heh).

There ain't a thing in the world wrong with BBb horns, and if you can deal with all the goofy fingerings in sharp keys with orchestral music, I'm sure a BBb would be fine in orchestra as well. Does a conductor care, or even know, if you're playing a CC or BBb horn? As long as it sounds good, you could play a Db horn I would think.

Go Blue Raiders!

tubeast · Post by **tubeast** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:02 am

IÂ´d second elimiaÂ´s post. There is a need for cheap, but musically sufficient horns in school band programs. This happens to be the BBb, for some reason.
I sure hope that only dedicated and talented musicians (read here: tubists) will be music majors in college.
To be more precise: thatÂ´s people who, graduating from high school, consider themselves to be in love with music in general and the tuba in particular, and whose success as a high school musician will justify their choice.
It will take three weeks of reasonable work at the most to be able to get along fine in a concert band situation with a horn of new pitch. (I know, because I did that twice in my life, so far. No EEbs around).
Everything else (soloing, playing "by heart" and all that) should be a matter of a few more weeks, depending on the individualÂ´s talent and practising habits. IÂ´d expect a true tuba-geek (and who else would consider pursuing a career bas(s)ed on "the big unÂ´") to be excited about the extended possibilities the new pitch will offer and not worry about the work it takes to play that thing.
Just my 2 (oh well, this is rather lengthy again, so maybe 3) cents.
Happy holidays, for HE HAS RISEN these days, 2000 years ago.
Hans

Leland · Post by **Leland** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:10 am

Wouldn't the typical BBb tubas be cheaper just because more of them are sold? If I can tool up for a BBb horn and sell 1000 examples versus a couple hundred of a CC, I could sell the BBb for cheaper, right?

Or is it just reputation? A CC tuba has less tubing, after all, so the cost of materials should be lower. Given the same manufacturing standards, the CC should be cheaper.

Anyway... here's a hypothetical question --

What if CC tubas were the beginner standard?

Would they be sold more cheaply? Would people "move up" to the bigger and darker-sounding BBb? Would sousaphones also be in CC?

I don't think it has as much to do with the tubas themselves as it does with the rest of the low brass and how often kids are moved to tuba in school. If you're a baritone or trombone player, it's just easier to switch to tuba if it's going to be in BBb.

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:37 am

Back in 1961 or 62 I attended a workshop for music teachers presented by Abe Torchinsky. He strongly advocated giving a CC tuba to any young student who showed promise. Somebody asked him where one could buy a CC tuba, and he had no idea.
About 30 years later I had a chat with Warren Deck, and asked him about the BBb vs CC question. He said that he had never made the switch because Abe T. had started him off on a CC tuba. He also said he would like to have a BBb tuba, but had not found a good one yet.
Personally, if I had ever been asked to play one of those Karl King marches in Db on a CC tuba when I was in high school I probably would have quit. I am glad that I switched from Eb to BBb tuba when I reached 8th grade. I can play a CC tuba in a banjo band, and I even played the Bozza Sonatine on an F tuba once, but I have chosen to stick with BBb.

CJ Krause · Post by **CJ Krause** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:10 am

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:20 am

elimia wrote:Heck, I'm real surprised to hear Marty mention that kids are strarting out that young now. I grew up in Cleveland, TN and I didn't start on baritone until the summer between 6th and 7th grade.
Go Blue Raiders!

They changed it a couple of years ago when they redid the middle school system. Kids can now start all brass instruments including tuba when they enter the 6th grade. We usually have 2-3 start BBb tuba each year.
elimia, you should see the new Cleveland middle school they built 4 years ago, it is a sight to behold! 4 bandrooms and a separate choir room!
They also combined the old middle school into expanding Cleveland High School.
In the county school system, they split half the students off Bradley high and built a whole new high school, Walker Valley High.
Not to mention that Lee University adds 2-3 new buildings a year and now looks like a small city itself.
Cleveland (TN) is a happening town!

elimia · Post by **elimia** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:26 pm

Marty,

Yeah, I've seen all those changes you mentioned when I've been in to visit family. I never got a chance to experience the 4 bandrooms when I was there, but the 2 we did have were big enough to work. The last time I heard the marching band was in a rebuilding period. I wonder how they are now? One thing is for sure - it isn't the small town I grew up in anymore. There has been a lot of sprawl in the N end of town; all of that used to be beautiful farmland and forest.

I'm glad to see they are starting a music program in the school system there for younger kids. I wouldn't have missed that chance if it was available when I was a little sprout!

Sorry to reminisce Tubenetters, I stop using up electrons now.

Bill Troiano · Post by **Bill Troiano** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:47 pm

For tone, pitch, blend with the other low brasses, ease of fingerings due to key signatures, ease of switching from baritones horn/euphonium, it just makes more sense, especially for young tubists, to play BBb in band.

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 3:25 pm

Charlie is absolutely right. If anybody in the 4th or 5th grade is already absolutely certain that he or she is going to be a symphony tubist then that kid should get a Weril CC. I have been told that they will always be available because CC tubas are the standard in Brazil.

TubeNet

Why not start them on a CC?

Why not start them on a CC?

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