Is Anyone Making Upright Bells for 20J & Mammoth?

[manatee]

anymore?

[EdFirth]

Kanstul makes both. Lee Stofer(and probably others who I am unaware of) can get them. I have both and they work well. The original uprights for the Conns were mostly 24 inches across but they did make smaller ones. I has an original 20 inch for my Conn and I preferred it to the bigger one. I think the original Martin bells were close to 20 also. Good Luck, Ed

[manatee]

I had "heard' that these were not very good, because of the metal they were made from.

[bort]

I'm sure those bells are just fine, and you're not going to find anyone else who makes them new.

Kanstul gets no love, and I'm not quite sure why... something about them just never truly seems to translate well to this community. That said, I have almost no experience with their tubas, so I can't say much of anything about them. Some people love them, some people are kind of lukewarm about them. But I think it's hard to screw up a bell... right?

[manatee]

I cannot disclose my source, but he is well respected as a tech nation wide. I'm not a troll. btw the bells are not available at Kanstuhl or the other previously mentioned source.

[bort]

Is it because of projection? I've heard people talk about Kanstul tubas with "the alloy" not projecting as well as they would like. Frankly, I think it's a lot like the gold brass vs yellow brass discussion.

Maybe you're talking about something else though...

[manatee]

This isn't Voir dire. I have no reason to trash anyone, I just want an upright bell. Frankly given my health issues, I should be asking about carbon fibre bells.

[EdFirth]

Manatee, If you live in Oregon why not ask about the next run of bells or possibly play on one that just happens to be there. The Conn and Martin bells that I have now aren't the "York Alloy" I think that costs more. They work VERY well. I don't have a connection to Kanstul but I talk to the guys who worked on the York Brass thing to say that lots of people go there to try stuff. They may only sell the stuff through dealers but I know guys do go there to try stuff.Again, Good Luck, Ed

[Donn]

This isn't Voir dire. I have no reason to trash anyone, I just want an upright bell.

Nor did anyone ask you to so. But don't toss out an unsupported claim/rumor/theory unless you are willing and able to back it up with facts/evidence.

If you could enforce that, we'd be out of business here. We deal in unsupported claims, rumors and theory day in and day out. I appreciate that we hate to see a good business slagged with anonymous criticisms, but it's kind of the nature of the business that you aren't going to see someone in the business come out in the open with an evaluation like that. If we allow only first person accounts, then the most we get will be anecdotes from people who spent the money to get one (1) bell, and therefore know all about Kanstul bells.

I therefore find the non-defendant not guilty, but suggest that the prosecution change the charge to poor quality rumor. In view of testimony that Kanstul will make bells out of your choice of metal, "because of the metal they were made from" doesn't mean much.

[bort]

I disagree. If someone makes an unsupported claim that is vague and not libelous, just ignore it and move on. Saying that something is bad without support is no better or worse than saying it is good without support -- and we sure don't jump on people for saying positive things without support. We just don't listen to them and don't give their statement any weight.

Just read through the lines to the point of the OP's post, and don't ask questions about the motivation. The point here is that they guy doesn't want a bell from Kanstul, and wants to know if there are other options. The reason for not wanting Kanstul is irrelevant.

So... voir dire? How about "voir dire" under the bridge. Let's move on.

[Donn]

The reason for not wanting Kanstul is irrelevant.

Irrelevant? If he'd just said, oh no, I'd rather hear about some alternative to Kanstul, you can bet he'd be grilled mercilessly for his reason. The reason turned out to be misguided, because it's about "the metal" they use - and they apparently offer your choice. So his transgression led to a useful discussion that apparently resolved that issue.

Just guessing, there may have been some way to thread the Tubenet etiquette maze that would have allowed this to happen with everyone's approval. Maybe "were not very good" could have been phrased better, like "opinions were mixed", how about that? And you could have omitted that sort of back-handed defense, the one that ends with "... but it's hard to screw up a bell, right?"

I hope some day, someone with a more compelling interest in the matter will start a discussion of "the metal", just because it seems kind of interesting. As bloke tried to do here. My guess is that it isn't bronze, as in simply a copper and tin alloy - but maybe they work with various unusual metals and one of them is technically bronze, for all I know. They're historically related to Reynolds, true?, and Reynolds supposedly made bronze bells at one time - though as far as I know, no one knows in any kind of detail what alloy that was, and my "Bronze-o-lyte" bass trombone bell is more likely close to pure copper.

[bort]

Shoulda but didn'ta. People might annoy you the way they say things (or half of things), but this really isn't a big deal. Again, sometimes you just have to read around some of the words to get to the point."I don't want Kanstul, what else can I do?"

FWIW, I've heard non-positive reviews of "the alloy" Kanstul tubas as well, so it didn't strike me as such an odd statement. I've heard people tell me that they didn't project the way they want them to (the old "sounds great under the bell, not as good in the hall" situation). Which people? Honestly, I don't remember, and also, a lot of times when people tell you real feedback (i.e., not glowing good and bad stuff), they ask you not to attach their name to it... especially when they are "known" people in the community.

[eupher61]

Your source may be respected, but there's little basis for the statement. Add me to the list of Kanstul
bell on a Martin owners, and not only am I satisfied, I'm thrilled. Upright bell only.

[EdFirth]

Lee may chime in here but the York brass came about from cutting a piece from a York bell and having it analysed. The premise being that so many have replaced their original bells and bottom bows with York parts with such good results that there must be something about the metal. There was. So they tracked down a supply of that brass and that's what the bells are made of. Polished, without laquer it is pink. The Boston Symphony Nirchl has one of those bells. It seems to project pretty well. European brass is softer and thinner, one of the lamest tubas I ever tried was a 20J with a Cerveney bell on it. Kind of off topic but Terry Warburton is working on a titanium bell for trumpets and the reviews here are very positive. My point is that the York alloy is not smoke and mirrors, neither is it a majic wand. And it's probably not for everyone. I have Kanstul bells(not the York alloy) on my Conn36J, my Martin Mammoth, and my King monster rotary tubas. They sound great and they fit perfectly.Ed

[iiipopes]

They're historically related to Reynolds, true?, and Reynolds supposedly made bronze bells at one time - though as far as I know, no one knows in any kind of detail what alloy that was, and my "Bronze-o-lyte" bass trombone bell is more likely close to pure copper.

Reynolds originally worked for York. He was lured away from York by H. N. White to develop the valved brass line, while White worked with Thomas King on the trombones. Reynolds later was taken out of the factory and put to marketing, which he did not like. So he left and started his own company, ran it for years, and retired, selling his company. Later, he came out of retirement and went to work with Olds, his prior competitor, where Zig Kanstul worked, starting on the floor, eventually as shop foreman. I don't know if Reynolds was privy to York's metal alloys.

A person has to develop some sort of diplomacy and double speak to survive on a forum. Now, how would all of you reacted and posted if the OP had started the thread with, "Are there any other places to source a replacement bell in addition to Kanstul," leaving out the hyperbole?

[Donn]

it is pink.

Is there anything else that can be said about this wondrous material?

I've read some comments about "naval brass", which is relatively hard and in fact does have a trace of tin in it. But looking at a Metal Reference table, it doesn't appear very pink.

Phosphor bronze is on the other hand very hard, quite red - C52100 variant , and allegedly used in brass instruments


I'm not saying it has to be one of those 40 brass types that are commonly available enough to be in that chart, so there's no unsupported claims here! just a little not-even-amateur metallurgy.

[Donn]

Pink -> more copper, less zinc?

Tends to be, but ... for example, "architectural bronze": 57% copper, 3% lead, 40% zinc -
... cartridge brass: 70% copper, 30% zinc -

(OK, not pink strictly speaking, but "architectural bronze" looks redder to me.)

[iiipopes]

Phosphor bronze - ah, yes - also used to make acoustic guitar strings. Big, round, vibrant tone with good overtones and definition, but does not "cut" as much as 80/20 copper zinc brass acoustic guitar strings, which, unfortunately, are called "bright bronze" by the industry. I imagine the tonal differences between "yellow brass" and "York brass" are similar.

[T. J. Ricer]

The couple of people that I've talked to that played the BSO Nirschl with the Kanstul bell seem to think it is pretty special... If it's good enough for the BSO, I'm guessing it's good enough for me

[manatee]

Thank you for all turning this from a BBQ back into a discussion. I see nowhere on Kanstuhl, Mack Brass, or Lee Stofer's site where they are selling or can make any bells. I emailed a couple of places and no response so far.Anyone else? And yes if its good enough for BSO, I'll buy one yesterday. Perhaps in retrospect I should have just asked,

"where can I get a replacement upright bell for a 20J or Mammoth"?