Is Anyone Making Upright Bells for 20J & Mammoth?

[bort]

Shoulda but didn'ta. People might annoy you the way they say things (or half of things), but this really isn't a big deal. Again, sometimes you just have to read around some of the words to get to the point."I don't want Kanstul, what else can I do?"

FWIW, I've heard non-positive reviews of "the alloy" Kanstul tubas as well, so it didn't strike me as such an odd statement. I've heard people tell me that they didn't project the way they want them to (the old "sounds great under the bell, not as good in the hall" situation). Which people? Honestly, I don't remember, and also, a lot of times when people tell you real feedback (i.e., not glowing good and bad stuff), they ask you not to attach their name to it... especially when they are "known" people in the community.

[eupher61]

Your source may be respected, but there's little basis for the statement. Add me to the list of Kanstul
bell on a Martin owners, and not only am I satisfied, I'm thrilled. Upright bell only.

[EdFirth]

Lee may chime in here but the York brass came about from cutting a piece from a York bell and having it analysed. The premise being that so many have replaced their original bells and bottom bows with York parts with such good results that there must be something about the metal. There was. So they tracked down a supply of that brass and that's what the bells are made of. Polished, without laquer it is pink. The Boston Symphony Nirchl has one of those bells. It seems to project pretty well. European brass is softer and thinner, one of the lamest tubas I ever tried was a 20J with a Cerveney bell on it. Kind of off topic but Terry Warburton is working on a titanium bell for trumpets and the reviews here are very positive. My point is that the York alloy is not smoke and mirrors, neither is it a majic wand. And it's probably not for everyone. I have Kanstul bells(not the York alloy) on my Conn36J, my Martin Mammoth, and my King monster rotary tubas. They sound great and they fit perfectly.Ed

[iiipopes]

They're historically related to Reynolds, true?, and Reynolds supposedly made bronze bells at one time - though as far as I know, no one knows in any kind of detail what alloy that was, and my "Bronze-o-lyte" bass trombone bell is more likely close to pure copper.

Reynolds originally worked for York. He was lured away from York by H. N. White to develop the valved brass line, while White worked with Thomas King on the trombones. Reynolds later was taken out of the factory and put to marketing, which he did not like. So he left and started his own company, ran it for years, and retired, selling his company. Later, he came out of retirement and went to work with Olds, his prior competitor, where Zig Kanstul worked, starting on the floor, eventually as shop foreman. I don't know if Reynolds was privy to York's metal alloys.

A person has to develop some sort of diplomacy and double speak to survive on a forum. Now, how would all of you reacted and posted if the OP had started the thread with, "Are there any other places to source a replacement bell in addition to Kanstul," leaving out the hyperbole?

[Donn]

it is pink.

Is there anything else that can be said about this wondrous material?

I've read some comments about "naval brass", which is relatively hard and in fact does have a trace of tin in it. But looking at a Metal Reference table, it doesn't appear very pink.

Phosphor bronze is on the other hand very hard, quite red - C52100 variant , and allegedly used in brass instruments


I'm not saying it has to be one of those 40 brass types that are commonly available enough to be in that chart, so there's no unsupported claims here! just a little not-even-amateur metallurgy.

[Donn]

Pink -> more copper, less zinc?

Tends to be, but ... for example, "architectural bronze": 57% copper, 3% lead, 40% zinc -
... cartridge brass: 70% copper, 30% zinc -

(OK, not pink strictly speaking, but "architectural bronze" looks redder to me.)

[iiipopes]

Phosphor bronze - ah, yes - also used to make acoustic guitar strings. Big, round, vibrant tone with good overtones and definition, but does not "cut" as much as 80/20 copper zinc brass acoustic guitar strings, which, unfortunately, are called "bright bronze" by the industry. I imagine the tonal differences between "yellow brass" and "York brass" are similar.

[T. J. Ricer]

The couple of people that I've talked to that played the BSO Nirschl with the Kanstul bell seem to think it is pretty special... If it's good enough for the BSO, I'm guessing it's good enough for me

[manatee]

Thank you for all turning this from a BBQ back into a discussion. I see nowhere on Kanstuhl, Mack Brass, or Lee Stofer's site where they are selling or can make any bells. I emailed a couple of places and no response so far.Anyone else? And yes if its good enough for BSO, I'll buy one yesterday. Perhaps in retrospect I should have just asked,

"where can I get a replacement upright bell for a 20J or Mammoth"?

[bort]

Call Kanstul... I've never had much success emailing them, but calling them almost always works.

[manatee]

thank you Mr. Bort.

[Donn]

If it's good enough for the BSO, I'm guessing it's good enough for me

While we're debating how we get and present input from others -- this one bothers me a little. I'm sure there are situations where it makes sense to seek out the equipment preferred by experienced professionals, but there are others where it doesn't. Mouthpieces, for an example of the latter: let's say you were to pick up the bass trombone, and needed a mouthpiece, and here's one that was designed for and used by the bass trombonist for the BSO. Good enough for you? Maybe ... maybe not. That isn't a hypothetical example, in fact there are people who would argue the Yeo mouthpiece is a poor choice for a beginner.

In the present case, suppose the effect of the metal used for the bell is about an order of magnitude more apparent from behind the bell (where you are), than it is out in front, relative to other acoustic phenomena that aren't affected so much by any vibration of the bell. Give such a bell to the BSO tuba player, and another one to some community concert band camper; will they both be equally well served by it? I can't guess, really, just saying it isn't obvious.

[manatee]

Alas this is an expensive hobby. Info follows:
Kanstuhl: $800.00 plus shipping for a Conn 20J upright bell.
about $1800 plus shipping for a Mammoth upright bell.

[The Big Ben]

Alas this is an expensive hobby. Info follows:
Kanstuhl: $800.00 plus shipping for a Conn 20J upright bell.
about $1800 plus shipping for a Mammoth upright bell.

They probably are not making these on a production line. I don't know if there is enough call to have a production run of, say, 50 and be able to sell them in a reasonable amount of time.

[iiipopes]

Alas this is an expensive hobby. Info follows:
Kanstuhl: $800.00 plus shipping for a Conn 20J upright bell.
about $1800 plus shipping for a Mammoth upright bell.

Considering the cost of a new Kanstul tuba, this is actually very reasonable.

[Untersatz]

If you're unwilling to stand behind your words, then do not speak.

Amen Bob!

[MackBrass]

If the bell from the 6/4 holton BBb works then call Dick Barth at BMB. His 6/4 tubas are basically recreated Holton copies.

[bort]

Alas this is an expensive hobby. Info follows:
Kanstuhl: $800.00 plus shipping for a Conn 20J upright bell.
about $1800 plus shipping for a Mammoth upright bell.

Considering the cost of a new Kanstul tuba, this is actually very reasonable.

Ditto. Especially since a trashed original 20J upright bell would probably cost you a few hundred anyway. I wonder if standard yellow brass is less expensive than the magical alloy?