More thoughts on problems with tubas playing late

[tubaman5150]

This topic is a continuation of one that was started in another thread and I feel it deserves more exploration. Who knew it was so controversial.

The idea is that tubas have trouble playing in time due to the physics of the instruments (large bore, deep mouthpiece, length, and mass). I'm not really trying to argue a point here. I just want to hear some more thoughts on the subject.
My idea is that if player uses good articulation and air pressure, most of this will resolve itself. I also agree with Bloke in that a player must use their ear to achieve what they want hear and not overthink it. I also don't believe tubas should rush to play in time. No more than a percussionist has to rush because he's having coordination problems. I don't think that the physics of a tuba are so exagerated that it require something so extreme.
I think this comes from younger players, usually switched from a smaller brass instruments, who have trouble with getting the instrument to respond in time. You see where this is going.
These are just my opinions. What are yours on the subject?

[Dan Schultz]

I didn't understand the argument in the earlier thread. I've been playing tuba since 1956 and have never had a problem with playing late. I do, however, have a problem with directors who tend to place the blame for bad timing on the tubas. Granted, the tuba section can cause problems... but there is usually no way for the tuba section to correct the problems in other sections or to 'put the band back on the beat'. A whole heck of a lot of the timing being off has more to do with the director than anything. Some directors are too animated and difficult to follow... and others just don't move much at all. To me, the downbeat occurs when the baton reaches the bottom of the motion.... not before or after. The notes come out of my tuba when they are supposed to.

[Uncle Buck]

Professional orchestras really should incorporate something into their auditions to gauge a performer's ability to follow a bad conductor.

Isn't it strange that pros probably have to deal with bad conducting more than the rest of us??

[tubeast]

I´d say it´s all a matter of teamwork. in every community band, tubas and drums are able to take over the lead from the conductor, if they make up their minds and are confident enough to do so. Been there, done that. Actually it was real fun when we decided to slow down at the end of a certain piece where the usual trick was that the piece was to speed up. The melody sections didn´t have a chance not to follow our tempo. Given the steady beat of popular music played in that environment, it´s really easy to do so, given some level of communication. I´m sure a professional orchestra has figured out a set of plans B,C, and D to cope with this kind of situation.
After all, it should become evident during the first 10 minutes of rehearsal if those plans need to be carried out, and I suppose the conductor in that case is very happy (or not aware at all) they exist.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I think that the issue of tubas/timing is a bit more complex than we are expressing at the moment.

Where we need to place our notes, in relation to the beat, is at least in part, dependent on the character of the music we are playing.

To make "up tempo" music really work, the bass (that's us!) should actually be a little ahead of the beat (if you listen closely to the bass player in the Basie band, when they are playing a fast chart, you will hear that the bass is actually ahead of the drums!).

For more "ballady" type music, the bass can actually be a little behind the beat, without causing any ill effects.

There are many situations that fall in between, which are always tied directly to the character of the music, at that moment.

[Leland]

The conductor needs to let it be known whether he's a metronome/timekeeper or a cue-giver. Some will even let you know over the course of a piece, especially in obvious parts like tempo changes and such.

Anyway, back to tubas,

They do respond more slowly to input. Even a trombone responds like a Formula 1 car when compared to the SUV-like tuba.

Well, maybe not that drastic, but it's very noticeable.

For me to play in time, I have to start playing a note ahead of everyone else, making the sound happen with everyone else.

[tubaman5150]

I think we established that tubas do respond slower than other brass and that we all have to compensate in some way.

I like what MaryAnn had to say about it in the other thread:

Yes! This is about the only topic I've run into where I would say "analysis is paralysis." Usually I lament that teachers will not give enough technical info when a student has a problem. In this instance....if I had to mentally "plan" how long before I needed to hear the sound, to start my articulation, I'd go nuts. Just using the ear to hear when the sound is, and fixing it, seems the only way to go. It is an attention focus issue, not a technique issue. You focus on when you hear the sound, not how you get there. The "how" should occur naturally.

MA, who is amazed she is suddenly in the other camp re "analysis"

[bigboom]

I think that the reponse of the tuba is much slower than a lot of instruments, but I also think that some tubas are slower to respond than others. I ran across this problem in marching, we would get a fast lick and I would practice at home on my concert horn but at rehearsal with a sousie I would be behind . I also think that it's something that players get used to and learn to compensate for and mostly without thinking about it. well, there's my two cents.

Ben Dennis

[tubaman5150]

I don't know if anyone else has considered this in the previous post, but it has always been a bane of every tuba player I've ever known. My feeling is that the conducter always hears the articulation of the tuba after every other instrument because he/she hears the first reflection of the ceiling of the hall. This can be 40' or more in some halls. Maybe the key is to have a small reflector over the bell to allow the articulation to be directed towards the podium at the same time as the trombone and trumpet, while allowing the core sound of the tuba to be heard as the reverberant sound we've all come to know and love.

Another option, using this theory, is to switch to recording bell tubas.

Horn players have that problem alot, too.

[DonShirer]

It takes at least one trip of the pressure wave up to the bell and back to the mouthpiece before the horn "locks on" to the pitch (about .028 sec for an 18 ft tuba) and probably one or two more before the amplitude builds up to the desired volume for a total of .085 sec from the beginning puff to the desired response. This could produce a marginally noticeable delay at fast tempos, compared to say cornets, but most players should compensate for this automatically.

The previous poster's mention of the ceiling echo might be more to the point if the conductor is complaining, but if he can hear a lag, the audience can as well, so I would follow his advice gracefully (if only to keep the rehearsal peaceful) .

[tubatooter1940]

Tubas do speak late,even moreso on low notes.We must keep this a great big secret.High brass players are uppity enough.They don't need to know
we have this problem and they don't.We have to play our fastest stuff in mid to upper range when they're around so they will stay intimidated.
Boo on those guys!
tubatooter1940

[adam0408]

Tubas do speak late,even moreso on low notes.We must keep this a great big secret.High brass players are uppity enough.They don't need to know
we have this problem and they don't.We have to play our fastest stuff in mid to upper range when they're around so they will stay intimidated.
Boo on those guys!
tubatooter1940

I disagree....sort of... I have found that acoustics have a greater impact on our sound than most instruments because of the acoustic reasons mentioned above. However, our instruments do not speak late (and if we do, its the player's fault, not the instrument in general), our sound may arrive late at the audience in some halls. However, this may have much less effect on us as tuba players than we think it does.

Consider the length of the sound wave that we produce: The pitch A 440 (the a above middle c) has a wavelength of approximately 31 inches. Our Bb, (below the staff) at 58.270 Hz has a wavelength of approximately 19 feet. This is just a short comparison of some useful reference pitches. The wavelength has everything to do with how a room responds to your instrument. Acoustic materials (such as those found in rehearsal and concert halls) are typically manufactured to absorb and or reflect a specific frequency range of sound. Those that claim to absorb all frequencies evenly are probably lying.

The wavelength of low sounds makes them difficult to handle. Most "acoustic" and "non acoustic" materials are good at managing mid-frequency sounds, but find low frequencies troublesome. This is why bass on stereo systems in cars comes through so much better than all other sounds. The sheer wavelength of the sound makes it cut through materials instead of bouncing off. It has something to do with interrupting the sound wave at the right time wether or not it is absorbed... I cant quite recall the EXACT details. This could have some affect on our sound. Also, as stated before, the height of the concert hall has some affect on when our sound reaches the audience or conductor. The clarinets are pointed at what is often a hardwood floor in the concert hall. Hardwood is excellent at reflecting sound. This means that the audience and conductor are getting a direct and very quick reflection of their sound. A tuba has a large column of air to go through before hitting the reflective surface (the ceiling) which may not be reflective at all, if treated acoustically with tile or some spray substance (which many rehearsal halls are in some degree or other to save the conductors and performers ears) So, our sound has a moderately absorbant air to travel through plus what may be a non-reflective surface to bounce off of. There are two strikes against us there. However, there are so many different variables involved in the equation of everyone's playing that I doubt this explanation even scratches the surface. That having been said, I have NEVER had a problem playing late that wasnt my fault. Also, dont try to blame your lateness on the room in a rehearsal hall. The rooms are too small to have that large of an affect on when your sound reaches the conductor.

I dont like to blame my mental playing mistakes on my instrument. After all, I control what comes out of it, it does not control what comes out of me.

Joel "who thinks clarinets are worse than anyone at playing out of time" Adams

[Shockwave]

The perception of tubas playing late is not entirely due to players starting their notes late, although some do that. The perception of when the note starts can often times come significantly after the actual beginning of airflow, especially with players who tend to have warbling attacks. Someone who plays by feel will sound late because the note takes a certain amount of time to build after the tongue releases the air. The key, as always, is to play by sound and not by feel.

-Eric

[adam0408]

Yes. Amen.