Step up Mouthpieces

[NCSUSousa]

Mark, I agree with what you've written.

For my way of thinking, the mouthpiece should fit both the player's embouchure (rim contour, width) and the instrument (bowl shape and shank diameter). There is no 'step up', just a better fit for the player or instrument. If any of these conditions aren't right, then make a change.

Quick MP review - The 120S (I have one) was a very good fit for every sousaphone I ever played (Jupiter brass sousa, 1960s King fiberglass sousa, 1960's Conn 36k, new Conn 20k). It was also a pretty good fit on my high school's Miraphone BBb 186 (was it a 184? I don't know) or one of the many King 1140s.
If I could do it all again, I might have wanted it in stainless steel so it didn't get dinged as easily during marching season. Never really needed the plastic version, but that's a thought too if it gets really cold.

[iiipopes]

I agree. The other "step-up" mouthpiece used to be a Bach 25, but if a player can handle the larger mouthpiece, then fine. Again, I don't think of it a "step-up," I think of it like purchasing a pair of school shoes for the same students: correct width, and thumb's width long so they will grow into them over the course of the school year. If they outgrow it, meaning that the cup diameter does not match the player for the most efficient embouchure, then change. If it does, then don't.

How to determine how large the cup? Here is an idea: have the player play the current mouthpiece through his/her range from the lowest to the highest note the player can play with good breath support and centered tone. Then try a mouthpiece with a larger diameter and/or cup depth that the player gets a little better response in the low register without losing more than, say, a major third of the upper register, then go back to working on fundamentals: good breath support, "firm" corners of the embouchure, as little pressure as possible, slurs, scales, articulation exercises, etc., to build the embouchure into the mouthpiece.

If over time the player gets his range back, say in the course of a year with better tone and articulation, then the mouthpiece is correct. If there are problems, go back to a slightly smaller mouthpiece, but still slightly larger or deeper than the old one, and try again.

When I still played trumpet in school band, before switching permanently to tuba, that is how I chose my trumpet mouthpiece: started on the 7C like everybody else. In high school, bought a 3C. Started private lessons - the teacher insisted on a 1 1/2 C, as that is what "real" trumpet players played. I never could get range and tone on it. Dumped the teacher, sold the 1 1/2 C to another student, went back to work on the 3C, and sat first section and got summer band camper of the year. I still have it on the rare occasion I have to play something like taps at a funeral.

[Donn]

"Step up" could mean different things.

What it usually sounds like to me is "sort of the real thing, not some `student' trash - but leaving some room to sell you the real real thing in a couple years if that works out."

Here, it also seems to mean "suited to a larger, and maybe more physically developed, player."

Once you get past the 25, I'm pretty sure you could go through a list of mouthpieces commonly used in school band programs, and find who advanced players who do just fine with that same mouthpiece. Is there such a thing as `student' trash mouthpieces? If not, then it looks to me like it's purely about small people (who actually exist in the adult population, though rarely acknowledged because they're sort of invisible in a crowd.)

[swillafew]

Back when I was counseled by older wiser players, I remember hearing a few times that the stock mouthpiece supplied with the horn was given a lot of attention by the manufacturer, and they had a lot of incentive to ship the best fit for the horn they could make. Until the person is switching horns I might just stay put.

[modelerdc]

As a music educator with three decades of experience I have definite opinions on this. On the brass above the tuba usually the student buys the Mpc (unless the school provides the instrument ax with harness or baritone) because won't want to buy new Mpcs from time to time you get recommendations that are not to large for most students, but not so small that the student will likely outgrow them. So 5c for tpt, medium deep cup farkas or similar for horn, 6 1/2 al trombone. Yes this one size doesn't fit all, some beginners will find the 5c and 6 1/2 too big, and baritones and large shank trombones can use a deeper cup, say 5gs or 5g. Tuba? Step up means something better than whatever came with the instrument or what the school happens to have, possibly a 24aw clone but could be anything. Middle school means the student is still growing and will not reach adult height for a few years. The mouthpiece should be large, but not larger than the young student can handle. The rim should facilitate a focused sound but still be comfy. The cup should be middle of the road, to work with most players on most tubas. Such a mouthpiece has already been made, the Conn 2. The Hellerberg 7b is easier to find, similar cup, slightly less comfy rim. Save the regular helleberg for strong high school players who can naturally use the larger size. I have switched tuba players from 24aws to Hellerberg 7bs, and have heard a large increase in the color and focus of sound. Our English friends may do great things on e flat tuba with the 24aw, but the bb flats in band need clarity, focus, and clean articulations. And this is easier for students to achieve on the Conn 2 and the Hellerberg 7b and the regular Hellerberg than on most common and affordable Mpcs.

[Radar]

This is interesting: Not too long ago at a Low Brass Choir rehearsal I was sitting next to a Tuba player that I played with in High school several decades ago, he is now a music educator and still one of the best Tuba players I know. I asked him what he was playing on his response was "I'm still playing the same Bach 18 I've always played, it came with my first Tuba". I certainly understand that if you're dealing with a smaller person with a smaller mouth they may need a smaller mouthpiece to start on, and as they get older might want to switch to something bigger. The idea of a step up mouthpiece kind of baffles me, because the step up seems to be marketed as an in between beginner and Pro model. I would think by the time you're ready to move up to a "Step-up" mouthpiece you would be ready for a size that many adult pros would find appropriate and use.

[ken k]

two questions to ask....
1. What is he/she playing now?
2. Why do they feel the need to upgrade?

ken k

[Dan Schultz]

Around these parts... the 'starter' MP seems to be the Bach 18, AW, or a copy thereof. A 'step-up' can be most anything depending on who is doing the teaching. I've seen trumpet and trombone teachers absolutely insist that a student use such and such MP without giving any thought to the student's chops at all.

[ken k]

It's pretty much universal around here that all beginners start on the 120s. Not sure when the change was made, but as a private lesson teacher, there's not much I can do about it, seeing how I only teach at one middle school out of over a dozen in the district, and it seems to be something that was handed down by the district administration.

The question that was posed to me was what should students move to after they spend a couple of years on the full sized Helleberg. My opinion is "probably nowhere, stay with it, it's large enough"

If I was making the rules, I would start them on a 7b

i would agree; 120s are pretty big. I never felt comfortable on one in college. I was a bass trombone major and learned to double on tuba and I could not use a 120 comfortably. I just never felt secure. I suppose due to my trombone face. so I used a conn 2 and later a denis wick 2. It wasn't til I made the switch to be more of a tuba player that I finally got used to the larger mouthpieces.

I have usually waited until a student was in HS and I knew he was practicing more regularly to switch him to the larger Helleberg. Often times they just sound unfocused and woofy on a mouthpiece that is too large. The same goes with trombone students; why everyone feels they have to get their middle school and high school kids on a large bore .547 horn is beyond me. Over the years, the number of kids I have taught whom I felt could handle the larger horn was few. I can count them on one hand. Trumpet teachers rarely have kids play a large bore trumpet. However, most manufacturers "step up" trombones are .547 bore. (sorry for the trombone rant there)
kk

[ken k]

Back when I was counseled by older wiser players, I remember hearing a few times that the stock mouthpiece supplied with the horn was given a lot of attention by the manufacturer, and they had a lot of incentive to ship the best fit for the horn they could make. Until the person is switching horns I might just stay put.

Until manufacturers end their common practice of chucking 24AW knock-offs and/or "lowest-bidder South American-made or Chinese-made whatevers", I might have to disagree. Mouthpieces add manufacturing cost, and better mouthpieces add more manufacturing cost. I just don't see many symphonic trombonists using 6-1/2A mouthpieces (stock) with their Bach 42 trombones or Remington mouthpieces (stock) with their Conn 88H trombones....and, arguably, those mouthpieces are better stock trombone mouthpieces than are many of the stock tuba mouthpieces found in the cases with new tubas.

bloke "I'm not feeling a gripe-y this morning as this post probably reflects. After all, there IS a HAM in the oven. "

at one time I would say more professionals did use the stock mouthpieces, until the relatively recent practice of custom and boutique mouthpieces. After all Bach mouthpieces are still considered a professional line of mouthpieces, albeit entry level professional at this point anymore.

hope the ham was good....

kk

[bort]

This whole concept is kind of funny to me. When I learned to play, I was told "here, use one of these." One was a Bach 22, the other was a Yamaha something or another (67C4?). I forget which one I used... but I picked the one that looked less gross. That summer, I saved my money and bought a new Bach 18 because I liked the written description in the Giardinelli catalog.

I think I was 23 or 24 before I bought another mouthpiece.