German tenor horn vs Kaiserbaritone

[joh_tuba]

This is sort of the German version of the euphonium vs baritone thread started a few days ago.

http://shop.strato.de/epages/15502304.s ... 2000009%22

Listening to this CD this morning and pondering what really separates a 'tenor horn' from a kaiserbaritone. Sort of the difference between a 5/4 and 4/4 tuba or something else?

This CD is helpful in that the first half is Manfred Heidler playing a Miraphone 56 and the second half is Nicolas Pfeifle playing a Meinl Weston 144 which are both kaiserbaritones.

Instruments referenced:
http://www.miraphone.de/en/en_modeldeta ... 7&v=1&l=en
https://www.musik-klier.de/details.asp?ID=0082808

Miraphone and Meinl Weston pages listing their tenor horn and baritone models:
http://www.miraphone.de/en/products/ten ... onium.html
http://www.melton-meinl-weston.com/orch ... ments.html

I find it noteworthy that in America, to my knowledge, tenor horns aren't readily available from these manufacturers and the only Kaiserbaritone actively maintained in stock is the Miraphone 56A5 at Horn Guys and sort of billed as a 'euphonium for tuba players': http://www.hornguys.com/euphmir56a.php

BUT! The Miraphone site lists a 'Special Edition' model 54 all tricked out with silver and gold trim and a fancy tuning kicker.http://www.miraphone.de/de/produkte/pro ... 4L1102AE40 That suggests to me that in Germany they are more 'proud' of the oval model and makes me wonder how the 54 and 56 compare.

Could someone shed some light on this topic?

[b.williams]

All in Bb.

Kaiserbaritone bore > German baritone bore > German tenor horn bore (usually, but not always).

[Donn]

That suggests to me that in Germany they are more 'proud' of the oval model and makes me wonder how the 54 and 56 compare.

I sure wouldn't know about the second question - someone around here has a 54 (I think), but don't think I ever heard the 56. (Though I did try someone's oval Miraphone for sale several decades ago.)

For sure, though, the oval form is much more familiar in Germany, eastern Europe etc., than in North America. Balkan brass bands like them - the exception that proves the rule, they want to look like they're not from around here. Chinese horns will suffice for this, though.

From a practical point of view, the oval horn in one of my bands always seems to be pointed directly at someone else's ear. Tuba players may be used to doing that, but it seems to me forward, or up, make more sense than sideways.

My understanding of tenor horn, specifically, is that it's intended for higher range off-beat parts - like the alto horn that the English call a tenor horn.

[ghmerrill]

From a practical point of view, the oval horn in one of my bands always seems to be pointed directly at someone else's ear. Tuba players may be used to doing that, but it seems to me forward, or up, make more sense than sideways.

These things weren't designed to be used by players seated beside one another (though you can see this done in some great Russian military bands). I have sat beside (the wrong side) an oval euph in band rehearsal, and it's far from pleasant. If I were ever to get a Kaiser Baryton, it would be with an upright bell.

My understanding of tenor horn, specifically, is that it's intended for higher range off-beat parts - like the alto horn that the English call a tenor horn.

Yes, though I have found a widespread tendency in the US to view any oval horn (independent of key, size, or bore size) as a "tenor" horn -- by professional musicians and and repair techs I had expected be more sensitive to the distinction. But there is something of an ambiguity. The whole alto/tenor/baritone spectrum seems to be a bit vague, and partly culture-relative.

[Donn]

It's hard to make rigid distinctions, when any intermediate bore profile whatever is likely to be viable.

[imperialbari]

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jul2001 ... 61604.html

[joh_tuba]

Interesting and helpful responses!

New questions:
Is there anyone in tubenet land with practical side by side experience comparing a Miraphone 56A5 and the Alex tenor tuba or similar models? Is there a legitimate affordable alternative to those two? I'm typically quick to suggest folks just go play horns rather than poll tubenet but this is a situation where that is truly difficult to do.

Listening to the CD, the most striking feature is the 'french horn' quality of sound. I find it very pleasing and outside of the 'brass band tradition' crowd I can't imagine a good reason they aren't more widely accepted and used. Thoughts?

Another thought:
I think a valid argument could be made for the use of two trumpets, two kaiserbaritones, one tuba as an ideal brass quintet setup. Discuss!

[Donn]

I think a valid argument could be made for the use of two trumpets, two kaiserbaritones, one tuba as an ideal brass quintet setup.

A solution that doesn't really address the problem: you still need two trumpets.

[hubert]

To my knowledge traditionally all brass bands, fanfare bands and harmony bands (in Europe) used/use barytons and euphs (in Germany Kaiserbarytons). They have different bores and add different colours to the sound of the band (compare cornet and flugelhorn). As far as I know the German tenorhorn (smallest bore of the three) mainly was/is used for rather high (melodic) parts, mainly in folkloristic music. In these settings they also had the function of the "mid-register", because french horns or alto horns were hardly used in these small ensembles.
By the way: actually very often no difference is being made between baryton and tenorhorn.

Note: the oval instruments originally were mainly used while standing upright or marching; the bowed form does not hinder the player's view as much as upright bells often do.
Hubert

[Wyvern]

Wessex do sell both and I think them beautiful instruments (lovely tone and good intonation). The Kaiser baritone leans more towards euphonium tone, but is more transparent. The tenor horn is lighter sounding and I would think ideal for playing the solo in Mahler 7 (as notated).

Interesting when I was in Germany playing with a local band they used the oval baritone in parade I did with them, but then for evening concert the players switched to euphonium. Unfortunately my German was not up to asking why.

[imperialbari]

Because of the weight difference.

[Kevin Hendrick]

I think a valid argument could be made for the use of two trumpets, two kaiserbaritones, one tuba as an ideal brass quintet setup.

A solution that doesn't really address the problem: you still need two trumpets.

Easily fixed -- replace the trumpets with flugels.

[geomiklas]

I have one for sale http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.vi ... 1519321603" target="_blank" target="_blank