Correcting rhythm/tempo issues

[dopey]

I haven't played regularly since college(7 years or so). I was as music ed major and only ever played rotary BBb horns. I'm anxiously waiting for a Eb Solo to arrive from Wessex.

I figure the combination of an Eb, 3+1 Compensating, and not playing for around 7 years is a great time for me to try and correct some of my biggest issues I remember when I was in college. I'll be forced to return to basics and can reinforce areas I ignored before.

I suck, absolutely suck, at rhythm and keeping tempo. I blame this on learning by rote my all region/all state material -- I'd learn to play it *exactly* like the recordings given to me. It worked well then, but by college level it caught up with me. My college professor recognized this and had me basically start page 1 of getchell with a metronome set at 60. I'd do these exercises for a few minutes, but i'd go right back to trying to 'fake it' on the effie suite, or whatever else seemed more fun.

I can disect a rhtym, and count it out loud. It is not that I have trouble understanding what the rhythm should be, it's more the moment I start playing everything goes out the window. If I would tap my foot while playing it will be crazy off the beat. I just can't keep a beat and play at the same time.

I am looking for recommendations on how to try and correct this fundamental issue. I'll be forced to start fairly basic again with the new horn, key, lack of chops. Is second book of getchell(or maybe first..) with a metronome the best? Any other recommendations, warmups, technique?

The other issue my lack of an ear; but that I don't see getting fixed.

Side note: I'm an American living in Sweden. If anyone is aware of 'community bands' or any sort of groups one can join(or where to find them) please let me know! I have a lead on one group here in Stockholm, but would love to start playing as much as possible.

Thanks for any help!

[balchb]

Get a sheet of easy, basic rhythms. Tap both feet to the metronome. Say the duple subdivision (1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and, etc.), clap the rhythm for each exercise while tapping and verbalizing the subdivision. Always do this with a metronome and speed up each exercise incrementally. If you can't do this all at once, then the rhythm exercise is too hard.

Getchell book 1: count it first. Apply steps above. Record yourself playing with a metronome to analyze accuracy.

Enjoy the Wessex Eb and I'd be curious to hear your feedback.

[Tom Gregory]

Every musician must contend with the constant refinement of rhythm (and pitch). Try the rhythm book by Garwood Whaley. There is an accompaniment CD. For tempo, use any melodic material such as Bordogni and use a metronome with only one beat sounding per measure. When you can get to beat one precisely move it to beat two etc. When you feel comfortable make that single beat one of the subdivisions. This can help start your internal subdivision clock.
Welcome Back

[dopey]

Every musician must contend with the constant refinement of rhythm (and pitch). Try the rhythm book by Garwood Whaley. There is an accompaniment CD. For tempo, use any melodic material such as Bordogni and use a metronome with only one beat sounding per measure. When you can get to beat one precisely move it to beat two etc. When you feel comfortable make that single beat one of the subdivisions. This can help start your internal subdivision clock.
Welcome Back

Interesting, my instinct of been the opposite. If a measure had 8th notes, i'd set the beat to 8th notes to ensure I played 100% accurate. This approach makes me find '1' each measure and work out the timing/rhythm of the measure that way, then get more granular from there.

Get a sheet of easy, basic rhythms. Tap both feet to the metronome. Say the duple subdivision (1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and, etc.), clap the rhythm for each exercise while tapping and verbalizing the subdivision. Always do this with a metronome and speed up each exercise incrementally. If you can't do this all at once, then the rhythm exercise is too hard.

Getchell book 1: count it first. Apply steps above. Record yourself playing with a metronome to analyze accuracy.

Enjoy the Wessex Eb and I'd be curious to hear your feedback.

I will give this exercise a try. Thanks!

I am looking forward to the Wessex, it was interesting scouring the web trying to find information about them. From what I could tell; some folks have hostility against them(by them, I mean Chinese Tubas -- Not a bad word about Wessex found) for a variety of reasons.. but I couldn't find a single post/review where people didn't rave about the quality, both sound/workmanship of these Wessex horns..For any price horn, let alone one in this price range.

Speaking of searching the web; did your sticky valve issue get resolved balchb? What was it?



I had planned to order both Getchell books. The name of the other common etude book from school eludes me...

[Donn]

I'm curious about the exact nature of the problem. If you could perform well at region/state band level, then under those circumstances your rhythm/tempo were fine, right? It sounds like this problem came up only when you were reading music from a page? If that's right, I think you might be a little too hard on yourself - learning by ear isn't "faking."

Anyway ... can you sing at all? While you're waiting for a band to turn up - that wants an arhythmic tuba player - you might very likely be able to find or start a lightweight small choral group. Reading as a singer takes the mechanical translation part out of the process, it's all "ear", and it might be good therapy for someone whose reading skills went down the wrong path at some point. Don't worry too much if it looks hard to do this at home by yourself, no one else can either, it's much easier in a group.

[dopey]

I'm curious about the exact nature of the problem. If you could perform well at region/state band level, then under those circumstances your rhythm/tempo were fine, right? It sounds like this problem came up only when you were reading music from a page? If that's right, I think you might be a little too hard on yourself - learning by ear isn't "faking."

Anyway ... can you sing at all? While you're waiting for a band to turn up - that wants an arhythmic tuba player - you might very likely be able to find or start a lightweight small choral group. Reading as a singer takes the mechanical translation part out of the process, it's all "ear", and it might be good therapy for someone whose reading skills went down the wrong path at some point. Don't worry too much if it looks hard to do this at home by yourself, no one else can either, it's much easier in a group.

I placed 1s/1st multiple years in region and 1st band all state level, but I do think in some ways it was 'faking it'. I would have a CD of the material and i'd learn to play it exactly the same in terms of rhythm, and work on expression.

I was explained to once by a professor that most people count internally/conciously when you begin learning to play. Eventually you get to where you have an innate understanding of an dotted 8th, quarter, etc and you may not need to consciously count while playing. I never consciously counted, and what I felt was a dotted quarter, dotted 8th when playing alone is just wrong. If I attempted to keep count while playing, train wreck. If I tried to play with a metronome anywhere near the expected tempo, train wreck.

Simple example:
I if i saw a dotted quarter, eighth, quarter, quarter . I wouldn't keep track of any sense of time/location in the measure, i'd just play what felt like a dotted quarter, followed by an eighth, quarter quarter.

To accurately work on this with a metronome i'd have to set the beat to 8th and count out '1 2 3 1 1 2 1 2 '. I could verbally count out over quarter beats, but playing it i'd likely rush/chop areas.

Just a complete and utter lack of 'sense of time' while playing. Was never really noticed in ensemble playing except when we were given syncopated parts, or worst come in on the off beat.

Unfortunately not a singer, I wish!

[balchb]

Speaking of searching the web; did your sticky valve issue get resolved balchb? What was it??

Still working it out. I don't want to go into more detail at this point other than saying Andy is taking care of it.

The suggestion of Bordogni or other etudes and taking the metronome down to 1 click per measure is good when you have a firm grasp on the fundamentals of accurate subdivision and pulse. I also use this approach.

[Donn]

I would have a CD of the material and i'd learn to play it exactly the same in terms of rhythm, and work on expression.

What I'm saying is, if you can do this - and the "first places" confirm that you can - it's all in there. You just need to connect that to reading, is what it sounds like.

It's like ... our brains are to some extent divided into a right and left hemisphere, where the left does a lot of analytical verbal stuff and the right is good at impressionistic stuff like spatial reckoning, and music. (And to be confusing, the left half is wired to the right half of the rest of the body, and the right half to the left.) The degree of specialization varies between individuals, typically more extreme in males. All that may as well be a fairy tale, '80s stuff anyway and not sure it's perfectly accurate vs. modern neural physiology, but doesn't matter because you're not going to go in to the doc and have your corpus callosum enhanced. Take it as a metaphor. Anyway, most of what we're taught about music comes in via the left hemisphere, as it must of necessity be presented in a verbal/analytical form. But no music comes out via the left hemisphere. I think anyone who's learning to play a second instrument may at some point be able to see this problem very clearly. You seem to be able to play the instrument after a fashion, and then comes this part that might be a little tricky, and you can almost see your left hemisphere trying to take over and tell your fingers where they need to go - with the predictable outcome, instantly the train is off the rails, because for all its learning, the left hemisphere is utterly incompetent at music.

If I'm right, at least at some metaphoric level the key player here is your right hemisphere, and the left is a menace that needs to be brought under control. I guess that means a lot of repetition of stuff that's working, or is close enough to working that it can be managed without a lot of interference from those wretched "cognitive" faculties. The material suggested here is probably great, I'm just talking about the approach to it. Massive, bulk repetition. Good readers (which I am not, so I hope I'm not saying something goofy here) aren't even looking at the note they're playing, they're like a measure ahead, and a good deal of the process has become unconscious. It takes a lot of reading to get there, but that's all it takes - it doesn't require any special inherent knack for that kind of thing.

[dopey]

What kind of music do you listen to?

Standard *everything* comment. Lately patrick sheridan to New Orleans Jazz, some ensemble pieces of particular songs I feel the need to listen to. Another week it could be the 'top XX of XX ' on Spotify.

the material suggested here is probably great, I'm just talking about the approach to it. Massive, bulk repetition. Good readers (which I am not, so I hope I'm not saying something goofy here) aren't even looking at the note they're playing, they're like a measure ahead, and a good deal of the process has become unconscious. It takes a lot of reading to get there, but that's all it takes - it doesn't require any special inherent knack for that kind of thing.

I follow what you're saying and agree. Hopefully with starting with the basics on Eb and being aware of these issues i'll be able to reinforce with positive repetition and come out better than before.

Thanks for the input so far all !

[Erik_Sweden]

Interesting this about right and left brain half.

I work as an quality engineer where part of my job is to see that fellow engineers actually working correct according laws and technical regulations. Also I do some programming. I guess all of that are very left side stuff.

When it comes to music I personally have had all Jacobs problem. My experience with it is that things that comes natural to my fellow musicians takes much longer time for me. But it all come, it just takes time, so don't give up. Problem may be that the conductor is not that patient

All I wont to say is: your not alone

[Donn]

I work as an quality engineer where part of my job is to see that fellow engineers actually working correct according laws and technical regulations. Also I do some programming. I guess all of that are very left side stuff.

Yeah, well, only real job I ever had, my title had "engineer" in it (though without any credentials, it's about as meaningful as "Sanitary Engineer" = janitor.) I amuse myself by writing programs in obscure programming languages. But I think musical ability in the math and engineering crowd is above average, we aren't really impaired - as he obviously isn't, having done quite well learning by ear in a way that I bet his peers couldn't have managed to save their lives.

[eupher61]

The idea of a metronome set to 1 beat per bar is good...but your self-diagnosed problem won't be helped by that, not at this point. Id' suggest you use the lowest common denominator (they don't teach that in grade schools any more, realizing the name was Least) to set the metronome. A Dr Beat or something similar has plenty of aural cues for various parts of the beat and the bar. Get a book of pure rhythm exercises, there are many out there, and start with each line slowly. Most likely there are CDs with some of the books, but DON'T USE IT until you are confident you have each exercise. Record yourself playing along with the CD, whether on a tuba or clapping or hitting a table (or your skull). You can work on rhythm almost anywhere. Driving---subdivide the turn signals, the windshield wipers. Walking-- number of steps in a square of a sidewalk (admittedly, that might be tough this time of year in Sweden...), or tiles in a room or hallway.

You're to be commended for not only taking up playing again, but switching keys AND recognizing a problem. The 12 steps for this problem are practice check repeat, practice check repeat, ad nauseum.

Have fun, and please let us know how things go with rhythm and with the Wessex Eb!