Philosophical thoughts on "clones"

[ghmerrill]

Yeah, and many (apparently most) Carl Zeiss lenses are made in Japan. So the Japanese have their stuff built in China, and the Germans have their stuff made in Japan? Confusing.

And have you noticed that you can't buy a shotgun or a canoe in Abercrombie and Fitch any more? Now there's a real "American adaptation" story.

[toobagrowl]

Yeah, and many (apparently most) Carl Zeiss lenses are made in Japan. So the Japanese have their stuff built in China, and the Germans have their stuff made in Japan? Confusing.

Only some of their stuff. But talking about tubas and such, the Yamaha tubas & sousaphones I've played clearly say "Made in Japan" stamped on them. The older ones just say "Japan".

On to cars & planes.......

Many German and Japanese car/automobile manufacturers have factories in North America. My dad bought a brand-new Honda Civic late last year and found out that much of the car was made in Canada Hondajet has it's HQ and manufacturing in the US (North Carolina). And so on...

Companies making their stuff in different countries has been going on for ages...

[bigtubby]

...
The philosophical issue I have with this entire process is the effect this could (or will) have on the manufacturers of the instruments being cloned. A lot of money is being spent to design new models of instruments, a costly and time consuming enterprise. These costs necessarily will be passed on to the buyer of a name brand instrument. Once a particular instrument becomes popular, the cloners swoop in and make knock offs at a fraction of the original's costs. It seems to me that this has to affect the original manufacturers in a very negative way.
...
As for myself, I don't think I will be rushing out to buy a cloned tuba any time soon. If possible, I will spend more and get the genuine article, and reward the manufacturer that put in their blood, sweat, and tears (and $$) into its development.

I am now officially off my soapbox, but am interested in others opinions.

I skimmed through this thread and this point may have been raised but I didn't notice it. Taking the role of advocatus diaboli:

In the middle of the 19th Century, Mr. Cerveny invented the contrabass tuba. Virtually all of the most desirable European tubas avaliable today began life as clones of Cerveny designs. Improved clones perhaps (as some claim the better Chinese instruments to be) but the basics were all handed to them by reverse engineering Cerveny instruments. Cerveny is still in business, having survived a pretty brutal 20th Century in Eastern Europe.

Miraphone 186's are effectively "better" Cerveny 681's and so on. Some claim that Jimbo xxx's are better than the Miraphone yyy's from which they were cloned and so on. If this is true, I doubt that it was solely accidental. Has Jimbo invested less in development than did say, Miraphone when copying Cerveny?

EDIT
I don't own and have never even played a Chinese built tuba. Mainly because I've been able to find excellent European and American made instruments affordably on the "pre-enjoyed" market. IMO that is generally a better plan but as always YMMV.

[Wyvern]

In principle I don't believe in cloning current model tubas to make cut price versions, and are using what influence I have in China to persuade Jinbao to move away from that business model. Where Wessex do sell tubas based on current models, such as the Miraphone 186, then I work to improve the Wessex to be better than what it is based. An example of this is the next batch of Mahler CC tuba will have our revolutionary new Wessex Z valves which are a real advance on the 19th century construction of present rotary valves. I will explain more about the new valves with illustrations next month when we get the first batch in stock.

My own personal emphasis is more on making completely new designs like Wessex Excelsior BBb tuba and re-introducing great discontinued instruments of the past such as the tornistertuba and ophicleide - with modern improvements. That is increasing the choice available to musicians.

I used to think that buying expensive German tubas worthwhile, such as my splendid handmade Neptune. But have found playing Wessex tubas (I believe in playing what I sell) that I get just as much pleasure playing horn a fraction of the cost. It is the music and performing to my best ability in good ensemble that gives me satisfaction as musician - not having a very expensive piece of brass on my lap. I honestly believe that the lower price of Chinese brass enables people to benefit in now being able to own tuba when they never could before, or by having whole stable of instruments to play for the same amount of money that previously only bought one. Is it not more useful and fun to have bass tuba, contrabass tuba, euphonium and travel tuba - than just one? And remember the sound that comes out the bell is mostly down to who is behind the mouthpiece - not to where the tuba is made.

In any case the whole business world has changed to become more international in that instruments that are supposably made in the west, are often now in fact just assembled in the west with components made in China. I know for a fact that components and even complete instruments for at least two of the major brands are made at the same factory in China as are Wessex.

[Three Valves]

And have you noticed that you can't buy a shotgun or a canoe in Abercrombie and Fitch any more? Now there's a real "American adaptation" story.

I passed one in the mall and thought it was a homo-erotic art gallery.

[happyroman]

This has been an interesting discussion, so I guess I am glad I started the thread. Based on what I have read, it seems that the general consensus is that the cloned tubas (regardless of the country of origin), have increased the size of the pie. Therefore, instead of taking market share away from the manufacturers being tubas being cloned, by increasing the overall size of the market, the clones are providing a much needed supply to a portion of the market that would otherwise be unable to afford any tuba. If my conjecture is correct, then this is most definitely a good thing.

[CA Transplant]

One of the reasons that the US production of musical instruments has gone away is the decreased number of elementary and secondary school students learning to play today. Back in the late 19th century, bands were everywhere, and schools began to teach instrumental music. That movement grew, and peaked sometime in the 1960s or 70s. As an example, my own high school had just 600 students in grades 9-12. Our band had 100 players. Most of us started playing an instrument in 4th grade. The school owned the big, expensive instruments, but kids owned all of their own trumpets, clarinets, flutes, etc. To supply all of those students with affordable student-grade instruments, manufacturers produced them. The US manufacturers were in competition with makers in Czechoslovakia, France, Germany, and elsewhere in Europe.

There was a huge demand for affordable instruments. The profits from those enabled makers to produce better and professional grade instrument, which always had a smaller market. Today, music programs are among the first to be cut in our schools. Fewer kids are learning to play instruments. Nobody buys a traditional piano any longer. Parents have to pay fairly high fees for their kids to play in the band, now, and their kids are buying cheap instruments to get started, just like my parents did when they bought a "Silvertone" clarinet from Sears for me in 4th grade.

Still, people are still buying instruments, and still don't want to pay top dollar for Jimmy's or Suzie's clarinet. So, they don't. American manufacturers stopped being able to sell into that market. Yamaha led the way, years ago, in producing usable instruments cheaper that US manufacturers could make them. Now, China just about owns the student instrument market. Next, it could be India. I don't know.

Bottom line: US manufacturers simply can't make instruments cheap enough for that student market. Parents won't pay for expensive instruments that their kids will abandon at some point. And, since they don't have that huge market to pay the overhead, they aren't making the professional instruments any longer, either, mostly. It's a real dilemma.

So, my euphonium is one of the last ones E.K. Blessing ever made. It's a copy of Yamaha student entry level horn, with a slightly larger bored an a German valve set. It's a nice horn, and I bought it used from some guy whose parents bought it for him when he was in high school. I paid $125 for it. It was a great deal, but they no longer make euphoniums in Elkhart.

People buy what suits their budget, so if US companies can't make cheap student horns that are competitive in price, they won't be able to make pro horns either, for the most part, either. Markets change.

[Rick Denney]

Back in the 70's and early 80's, there were Miraphone, Alexander, Besson, and a bunch of stencil brands of instruments made in Communist eastern Europe. Few of we hobbyists could afford Miraphone or Alexander (whose prices had jumped during that inflationary period), and we bought those stencil brands. I owned a "Sanders" tuba that was really made by Amati/Denak (aka Cerveny) in what was then Czechoslovakia. One of the most desirable of F tubas, even before the "Parantucci" branding, was made by B&S, a company patched together by the Communist East German government out of what had been a cottage industry in Markneukirchen. I have owned a couple of those, including one that was assuredly made when East Germany was still East Germany and decidedly under Communist rule.

As one who strongly opposed (and opposes) communism, I had to examine my ethics when buying that Cerveny-made Sanders. Ultimately, it occurred to me that starving people will riot in the streets, with a very unsure outcome (except that many of them will end up dead or cruelly imprisoned). An implacably oppressive government does not care if its people starve (see North Korea, among too many other examples), but in the end all governments are judged by whether their people are fed. Humans being what they are, they aspire. At first, they aspire not to be hungry. Then, they aspire to have a more comfortable existence. Ultimately, they aspire to luxury. I've never read of an example in human history where this was not true in any sustainable way.

At that point, I realized that a starving Czech population would probably just end in a lot of dead Czechs and even more implacable power on the part of its government. But fed Czechs would aspire to become wealthier, and their government would struggle to supply that wealth, given that I truly do believe their system is incapable of feeding that aspiration sustainably. And history has proved that to be correct--eventually they have reformed because their governments could not supply the quality of life their people were demanding. Was that rationalization on my part? Perhaps. But for me it was the difference between a decent rotary tuba and a truly dreadful battered old Besson Stratford.

Let's consider that Stratford. Why was any British-made instrument that dreadful? It's simple. Besson was selling premium stuff at small margin to a small market, and devoting their best resources to its construction as a matter of establishing the value of their brand. Their apprentices made student-level stuff like that Stratford. So, we have two instruments of the day--let's say a Stratford and a New Standard (as the forerunner of the Sovereign). The New Standard might have sold for X, with a 10% total margin. The Stratford might have sold for 1/2X, with a 25% margin. 25% of 1/2 is 12.5% of X--a higher total number of pounds Sterling than 10% of X. And a thousand Stratfords might have been sold to school children for every one New Standard that was sold to a professional or advanced amateur.

That explains why Besson would try to sell many more Stratfords and not try to make New Standards more affordable. But that doesn't explain why the Stratfords were so dreadful. And that, I suspect, is because the UKoGBaNI would not allow Czech instruments to be imported at all. (This is also evidenced by some British professionals traveling to East Germany with a Besson and returning to England with a B&S--in effect smuggling it in since any other method of importation was prohibited.) So, school children in Britain had no alternative choice but to endure those Stratfords. (This scenario was also true in the U.S. during the time of the heyday of the American manufacturers. We revere the best of those times, but most instruments sold in those periods can be bought on ebay now for little enough to buy them just as a cheap way to get the case.)

Had school children in Britain had access to affordable Czech instruments, Besson would have to either 1.) improve the Stratford, 2.) persuade Britons to buy it anyway out of a sense of national loyalty, or 3.) stop producing student instruments altogether. Of course, their preferred method was to persuade the British Government to prohibit that access to bolster high labor (or is that Labour) demand in Britain. Whatever justification there might have been after WWII was soon replaced by political calculation.

(Somebody from England is going to tell me how wonderful those Stratfords really were. Save it. I owned one. I hope mine was the exception, but I rather doubt it was. And, yes, I acknowledge that a better player might well have played it wonderfully, but that can be said for the even worse French student tubas of the day, where this same story might be told. And Bessons were all I played throughout school except for plastic sousaphones, and one--blessed--year playing a borrowed Miraphone.)

So, nobody sat in band practice with more pride of ownership than did I with my (demo-model) Cerveny-made Sanders. It was actually quite a decent tuba. But as I got older my tastes and discernment improved, and my financial ability also improved, allowing me to be more selective and, yes, even luxurious.

Those Chinese tubas, even some of what we laughed at when they were first imported, are better than some of the student-line instruments being vomited by western factories back in the day. Let's not kid ourselves about our glorious past.

It's funny how many have included Japanese tubas as among the western brands. At one time, they were just where the Chinese were a few years ago. What made the difference for Japanese instruments? Great artists devoted their energies to helping Yamaha improve their designs, growing from clones to become independent designs. Is the Doc Severinsen model Yamaha trumpet of 40 years ago that much different from a Bach? Isn't a Yamaha 621 F tuba the outer branches of a student model derived from a British instrument, with a valve body and bugle improved through collaboration with Schilke? As great performers and designers work with the Chinese factories to improve their designs, the quality will come up to standard, and in many ways already has. Those improvements have caused divergence from their original designs. Cloning those designs was essential, at first, to attract an American market. But make no mistake--the German producers have largely decided they will not make instruments for the student market, and have moved on to designs that are more sophisticated and that will appeal to better players. Hirsbrunner, as the extreme example, has ceased trying to be a "manufacturer" and returned to being a "tuba maker", making high-end handmade instruments for those willing to pay for it. And I suspect they are at full capacity, because the market still includes those who are well-heeled enough to aspire to "luxury". They may still, in some cases, be making the models that have been cloned, and the venerable Mirafone 186 is an example of that, but I bet that Mirafone no longer sees itself as the manufacturer of school instruments that they once did. They can't compete at that price point even without the Chinese, and haven't been able to do so for a long time.

And as those Chinese workers get a taste of wealth, they will aspire to more. At some point, the Chinese will no longer be able to sustain such low prices, and they will become less competitive in terms of price. When this happens, Americans may try to get back into the game. But I suspect they will still want to produce volume stuff, with the exception of cottage makers who, even now, can't supply the demand for their services.

Rick "for one prior poster: noting that the American watch industry faded in the 50's, long before the emergence of cheap Asian quartz watches" Denney

[bisontuba]

Hi-
A few thoughts:
---the Internet and web shopping has forever changed things. In the old days, you would go to your local music store and buy/order an instrument OR you might go to a big store like Giardinelli's in NYC.
Today, every store has a website, you have eBay, you have global shopping, you have 'small shops' or warehouses just specializing in Chinese instruments. People can now price shop sitting in their homes on their computer. I have seen people come into a Local Music Store to buy a mute and telling the owner ' Well, I saw it on eBay for a cheaper price...'
---school music programs are getting hit hard by budget cuts. Schools who can afford to buy new instruments are looking for the biggest 'bang for the buck.' If a school can buy 2 or 3 Chinese tubas for what one Miraphone or Meinl Weston BBb would cost, they'll do it. Even though I am not a fan of his politics, Mike Huckabee has a brilliant video-on YouTube--talking about why Music and Art should never be cut back in schools. His logic is seeing how these student who are involved in the Arts do in test scores--much better than average! The Arts drive students to become better all around students. In addition, I am amazed by some people always voting down school board budget proposals. As a home owner, I realize that one of the big reasons folks buy a home in a certain area is because of having not good, but great schools. Having an excellent school with everything to offer makes people want to move into a neighborhood with an outstanding school district. And this makes homes in those areas continue to go up in price because of demand.
--- 'free trade' agreements. Remember Yamaha having a factory in Grand Rapids MI? Well, thanks to our politicians--Democrat/Republican, Liberal/Conservative--they nearly all sold us out on NAFTA, etc. Why have a factory in the U.S. ( the exception being the Andreas Eastman Company acquiring/investing in Shires and Haynes)? I remember being invited years ago to a Federal Reserve Lunchon here in Buffalo at its then Federal Reserve Branch. The guest speaker was the head of the NY Fed, Timothy Geitner, who later became the Secretary of the Treasury. I asked him a question: 'What do you think of Free Trade Agreements' and the loss of manufacturing they will create in the USA?' His answer: 'I am a fan of Free Trade Agreements. They open up markets and allow companies to make more money. Employees in manufacturing will need to learn new job skills.' Like that has happened. What about the highly skilled craftsmen in manufacturing? They lost their jobs and the U.S. lost their skill set to pass on down/teach new people. We don't have Fair Trade but Free Trade. So now we are proposing another Free Teade Agreement for the Far East. Will it become reality? I bet it will. Will things change? No, the Genie is 'out of the bottle!'
Do I wish things were like the 'good old days? Yes. Do I think they will go back that way? No way. Just like Yamaha starting from student lines to pro lines, then Jupiter following, the Chinese are on the same track. We have higher end lines now from China in EASTMAN, John Packer, and Wisemann. We have continued improvement in quality from China in JinBao--with some excellent 'bang for the buck' items like the Miraclones, Cimbassos, etc.
Who is next? Will we have a Vietnam maker or a Thailand maker or an India/African maker next out of the box? We'll see.......
I believe it is just a matter of time before a shake up/buy out of UMI, Bach, etc. happens....Bach makes a fine product. UMI just doesn't have skilled trade folks like the old days ( the old Conn factory workers, for example) who can compete today. And how can you with Free, not Fair, Trade...
Time to get off my soap box and get back to practicing.....
Mark

[Three Valves]

One of the reasons that the US production of musical instruments has gone away is the decreased number of elementary and secondary school students learning to play today.

I still see huge high school band programs (where there are great band directors, and supportive parents/principals)...and (unlike when I started in the 7th grade) most beginning band programs now seem to begin in the 5th grade.

My well regarded HS band bused up to Toronto for a band competition in the 70s. (That was a big deal then and much Ruby Red grapefruit was sold to pay for it)

Now they fly to Europe.

[CA Transplant]

For Bloke:

When I mentioned the 19th century, I was talking about the last couple of decades of the 1900s. Looking at the musical instrument pages from the 1897 Sears catalog, you'll find every category of instruments, in several grades. Sears sold stencils of Czech-made, French, and even US instruments in enormous quantities and for really, really low prices. That continued right up through the 20s. Later, in the 50s and 60s, they mostly sold stencils from Elkhart makers.

My Sears Silvertone clarinet cost my parents $70 in about 1956. A few years later, I got a professional-grade used Penzel-Mueller clarinet for $100. It was made in the 1930s. Both were expensive for my parents to buy, but neither was so expensive I couldn't have one.

The high school had one crappy bassoon, a weird Conn oboe with "military system" saxophone fingerings (wish I had it now), four Conn sousaphones, and an assortment of baritones. 100 of the 600 kids at my high school played in the band. I don't see those percentages of students in school bands today. All of the other instruments were student-owned. Most of them came from Sears.

The kids still own most of their own instruments, but they are no longer made by US manufacturers. And there it is.

[Three Valves]

You are SO MEAN!!

I hate you Dad, everyone else is going.

[bort]

Shouldn't the "attraction" have been the band competition?

That said, a few years back I saw a Japanese high school band play a concert at Carnegie Hall (part of some larger US/Japan cultural goodwill series). Besides being a great group (we've all seen the videos of these bands), it seemed like there was an actual purpose to being here. Other times in other cities, I've seen different foreign bands playing here in the US. Neat idea, and I think it's easy to forget that the actual concerts are a total of about 3 or 4 hours of the entire trip time.

I think HS band competitions are ridiculous and a waste of time. I think HS band trips with cultural merit can definitely be worth the time. I'm still hoping I will eventually find some long lost relative in Europe that my kids can stay with for a few months one summer. That's the kind of foreign experience that really changes kids and helps them develop.

[Three Valves]

I think HS band competitions are ridiculous and a waste of time.

As wasteful as football, basketball and wrestling etc....??

Our local marching band competitions were fun.

If I ever doubted that high stepping, spats wearing, show bands were vastly superior to drum and bugle/corps style, that cinched it!!

[tofu]

Rick "for one prior poster: noting that the American watch industry faded in the 50's, long before the emergence of cheap Asian quartz watches" Denney

I assume that is directed at me. The first two lines of my post stated this:

Before 1850 the English and Swiss ruled. But after 1850 until really just before the turn of the century 1900 - Americans ruled.

My post then went on to state how the Swiss were able to retake the market then lose it again to the cheap Asian quartz watches in the seventies then regain it once again only to then come up against the no wristwatch at all trend of the smartphone age. It does seem that the high end market has come back for the Swiss again. Whether or not they can or choose to get in on the emerging smart phone wrist watch trend is another story.

The American watch industry was mostly in decline from the 1900's onward - long before the '50's.

[bort]

I think HS band competitions are ridiculous and a waste of time.

As wasteful as football, basketball and wrestling etc....??

I should clarify -- I think the "pay to travel and attend" concert band competitions that I went to were ridiculous and (musically) a waste of time. It was no different than any county band adjudication we ever had, except there was a dinner/banquet with a bunch of other people/schools you've never heard of where the results were read.

Oh, and every band gets a trophy. That's an even better sign of how much "competition" was involved.

[Three Valves]

Oh, and every band gets a trophy.

[ken k]

back to the topic at hand....

I was at the army tuba conference and played many, many tubas there, clones and originals. The $2995 Chinese horns were not so hot. The $5000 - $6000 Chinese horns were very good. The $9000 German horns were awesome. You still get what you pay for.

Some of my favorite horns were a $4000 Russian horn and a $4000 (thought that was high) 30 (?) year old Boosey and Hawkes Eb at the Baltimore Brass stand and the Miraphone 186 & 187.
kenk

[Rick Denney]

Rick "for one prior poster: noting that the American watch industry faded in the 50's, long before the emergence of cheap Asian quartz watches" Denney

I assume that is directed at me. The first two lines of my post stated this:

Before 1850 the English and Swiss ruled. But after 1850 until really just before the turn of the century 1900 - Americans ruled.

My post then went on to state how the Swiss were able to retake the market then lose it again to the cheap Asian quartz watches in the seventies then regain it once again only to then come up against the no wristwatch at all trend of the smartphone age. It does seem that the high end market has come back for the Swiss again. Whether or not they can or choose to get in on the emerging smart phone wrist watch trend is another story.

The American watch industry was mostly in decline from the 1900's onward - long before the '50's.

Yes, you're right, I didn't read well--my apologies. I'm no stranger to watch lore, but this isn't the forum for that discussion.

Even so, the Swiss industry survived by moving upmarket and lowering production, not by reducing costs and increasing production. That's a lesson for tuba makers in places where labor is expensive.

Rick "thinking American watches were strongly competitive with the Swiss right up until WWII, and owns both a Hamilton railroad-grade pocket watch and a Jaeger-LeCoultre wristwatch, both from the mid-40's, that demonstrates it" Denney

[MikeMason]

Pretty happy with the sound I'm making with a wisemann and a blokepiece symphony.