Philosophical thoughts on "clones"

[Three Valves]

Oh, and every band gets a trophy.

[ken k]

back to the topic at hand....

I was at the army tuba conference and played many, many tubas there, clones and originals. The $2995 Chinese horns were not so hot. The $5000 - $6000 Chinese horns were very good. The $9000 German horns were awesome. You still get what you pay for.

Some of my favorite horns were a $4000 Russian horn and a $4000 (thought that was high) 30 (?) year old Boosey and Hawkes Eb at the Baltimore Brass stand and the Miraphone 186 & 187.
kenk

[Rick Denney]

Rick "for one prior poster: noting that the American watch industry faded in the 50's, long before the emergence of cheap Asian quartz watches" Denney

I assume that is directed at me. The first two lines of my post stated this:

Before 1850 the English and Swiss ruled. But after 1850 until really just before the turn of the century 1900 - Americans ruled.

My post then went on to state how the Swiss were able to retake the market then lose it again to the cheap Asian quartz watches in the seventies then regain it once again only to then come up against the no wristwatch at all trend of the smartphone age. It does seem that the high end market has come back for the Swiss again. Whether or not they can or choose to get in on the emerging smart phone wrist watch trend is another story.

The American watch industry was mostly in decline from the 1900's onward - long before the '50's.

Yes, you're right, I didn't read well--my apologies. I'm no stranger to watch lore, but this isn't the forum for that discussion.

Even so, the Swiss industry survived by moving upmarket and lowering production, not by reducing costs and increasing production. That's a lesson for tuba makers in places where labor is expensive.

Rick "thinking American watches were strongly competitive with the Swiss right up until WWII, and owns both a Hamilton railroad-grade pocket watch and a Jaeger-LeCoultre wristwatch, both from the mid-40's, that demonstrates it" Denney

[MikeMason]

Pretty happy with the sound I'm making with a wisemann and a blokepiece symphony.

[quesonegro]

The Sneeches were made up though And the moral was that they were all conned by the guy with the machine, if I remember correctly...

[quesonegro]

This is more like a muddle puddle tweetle poodle beetle noodle
bottle paddle battle...

[MikeMason]

Whether you like the bloke mouthpieces or not,there's really no denying how beautifully designed and made they are.

[tubalamb]

when the knock-off plays and works better than the original) which one is the knock-off...?? What I'm suggesting here (yup, and this is probably considered "controversial") is that "lower price" is only a *secondary* issue.

This is exactly the case that ran into earlier this week, although not with the Wisemann (still need to try that horn out). Last Monday, I was trying F Tubas a well known East Coast shop. Had the chance to play a couple 2182-Ws, a Petrushka, a Firebird, and a couple PT-10 clones.

I brought some "ears" with me: a friend who's very talented trumpet player. He subs a fair amount with a world class orchestra and has had some success in big auditions . . . hasn't won one yet, but it's only a matter of time.

Pitch was probably most consistent on the Firebird, and one of the 2182-Ws had a very sweet singing sound that appealed to me. (Kudos to Aaron Tindall on improving the design of the 2182). However, the best sounding F-Tuba (to my ears and my trumpet friend's ears) was one of the PT-10 clones (one was clearly better than the other). Pitch is only good (not as consistent top to bottom as the Firebird), but I can deal with that for an instrument that sounds great. There are some minor mechanical issues that will need to be addressed in the future, and I'm pretty confident those would not be there with one of the long established, brand-name tubas. However, this is about making music, and that PT-10 clone was the best tool I could find. It came home with me.

To even add one more endorsement, I played it in quintet rehearsal Tuesday morning and the pitch and ease of playing beat the 2250 I've been playing on for awhile now.

Frankly, this is my living, and I am willing to spend the necessary $ to find an instrument that fits my needs. I've been skeptical about some of the clones, and probably still am a bit, but damn this tuba can sing. Add me to the list of believers.

[Michael Bush]

I was at the army tuba conference and played many, many tubas there, clones and originals. The $2995 Chinese horns were not so hot. The $5000 - $6000 Chinese horns were very good. The $9000 German horns were awesome. You still get what you pay for.

I did the same, and found things not nearly so simple. Possibly the worst tuba I played there was the $8000+ used 2145 one of the major dealers had. I wouldn't have traded any or all of my tubas (one each, American, German, and Chinese) for it. I thought back to the example Louisville Music had last year, which was one of the most amazing instruments I've played, and offered for fewer moneys.

Dollars do not invariably or directly correspond to quality.

[Donn]

I've been told that the the Miraphony mpc that ships with the 186-ish CC is somewhat similar (ballpark close) to a C4.

Well, like he said, who knows when, but eventually someday they'll come up with something that you can really use to play tuba with.

[Three Valves]

Dollars do not invariably or directly correspond to quality.

So you'd say the exception proves the adage false??

[Donn]

I think you can use the mpc I mentioned now, not someday. It's supposed to be pretty close to a C4/TU23.

You don't see a contradiction here?

[Michael Bush]

Dollars do not invariably or directly correspond to quality.

So you'd say the exception proves the adage false??

If you read through the countless threads on here of which this one is a clone, you'll find that there are a great many stories of exceptions. Quite enough to justify the thought that you can't go by the price tag alone.

[Donn]

What is the Schilke 69C4...??

It's a tuba mouthpiece somewhat like a Miraphone C4, but with a normal size throat.

[Michael Bush]

Back in them days, somebody started a thread like this once a week. See what fun we've been missing since TN went to pot and we've discussed other subjects?

[dwerden]

I have my own feelings about buying so much from China, from shoes to electronics. Frankly it makes me nervous from a market point of view. However, that may change as Chinese people start getting paid more for their work. Various political types talk about such things as a possibility. I don't know enough about the factors involved to make a bet on what is going to happen.

I CAN say that at least this is not a situation where a disreputable company copies a Besson and sells it with a name like "Beson" or "Bessen." The factories that most of us talk about make their own branded models, and they may also produce models branded for others. In the latter case there are sometimes genuine enhancements. It seems like Wessex has come up with a good QA process, and the owner of Sterling is fairly directly involved with design specs for the Sterling JP models made in China. I'm sure there are other companies who take the whole thing seriously.

As far as defects, they can show up on the most expensive brands; one would assume they will show up more frequently on the cheaper horns, but there are warranties in place. After all, Bentley cars come with a warranty, so even buyers of the best of the best need some reassurance. I remember at some point(s) in the car battles the American middle-class autos had much longer warranties than some of the super expensive ones. But I digress...

The best of the clones these days offer players a choice that makes life easier. I'm only qualified to speak about euphonium. In years past, a new pro-type horn was out of reach for many college players. Some of them lucked out and found nice used Bessons/etc., but others could not find anything they could afford in compensating horns. Those folks would up playing a Yamaha 321 or similar. Nice horn, but different from a Besson Imperial, for example. Now they can come closer with the clones if that is there choice. They can buy a new compensating euphonium from JinBao for 800-1200, from Wessex for 1200-1500, and a horn like the JP mentioned about for somewhere in the 2000's. For the sake of my students, I think that is a good thing.

What we don't know is how these clones (the newer ones, which are better than the first-round examples) will hold up for decades. One might assume they won't last like a pro-level horn. But for the price, do they need to?

Now where I jump off the merry-go-round is when we talk about plastic tubas or euphoniums. I just don't get it. Maybe they makers will change my mind some day, but I'm going to be tough to convince.

[tofu]

Who (besides me, and some other old farts) remembers those Wabash-era tuba mouthpieces with exteriors that strongly resembled Conn mouthpieces?

I do - still have it. FIrst tuba mouthpiece I ever bought at the age of 12 some 4+ decades ago. Renold Schilke spent an hour with me trying to find the best mouthpiece. I had not brought a horn as I rode the train down to the loop so he brought out a tuba he said he had designed and built. So about 5 minutes into blowing on it I told him I thought his tuba had a problem. He had a good laugh when I told him open Bb was way off. So I got a mouthpiece and an education in C tubas. I had no idea who he was at the time other than a friend of my private lesson teacher and looking back I'm amazed that he spent so much time with such a goofy kid.

[Worth]

I started messing around, put a Profundo (new deeper) rim on to an Imperial cup, fitted the Imperial cup with a BRITISH (small) Imperial shank (which virtually eliminates the so-called "gap") and the WiseguyT6-P started REALLY speaking - i.e. "more clarity/much less fluff". (Mrs. bloke REALLY liked it... "That's a GOOD tuba...almost as good as your 5450...BUT that's a REALLY GOOD tuba...") When I put a more conventional mouthpiece on the Wiseguy, though, Mrs. bloke's eyebrows lowered back down.

Interesting -- I've been playing my Wisemann 900 with a Blokepiece Symphony 33.2 #2 rim American Shank but recently acquired a Stofer Geib American Shank (which inserts just a bit farther than the Blokepiece. I'm through the honeymoon period and whether it's a gap issue or not, I'm sticking with the Stofer piece for now as response in all ranges has improved, especially in the Ab to B in the staff where the occasional double buzz on slurring or jumping from another range to this zone would happen if not being mindful of flattening the lower lip or directing the airstream downward. The Geib is a bit more tricky with upper range articulation, maybe a function of rim design, but that's coming along. Lower range response with the Stofer Geib is the best of any pieces I've tried to date. Seems well matched for this horn IMO.

[FreeBandMusic]

Someone pointed out almost all pro Euphs are based on the Blakely design. But who did Blakely work for... Besson, Boosey, Salvation Army, or someone else? How long should anti-clone protection last? Since Besson folded, NO ONE should be able any compensating euphs?

And no one except should be allowed to make Sousaphones...

And I've heard the design of the basic Mirapbones is a design from Cervy.

And there are all the Yama-York, YorkBrunner, Jupiter, and others.

Clearly the fault like in China!

I'll stop... but I remember how all Yamaha horns were originally clones. Originally POOR clones. If I remember correctly, the designs for the YEP321 and YBB321 and other low brass were borrowed from Holton... then Holtons became stencils for Yamaha production, and then they began they came to carry the Yamaha name. Today they are one of the largest and finest makers on earth. Jupiter has seen the sort of progress. I'm betting China will continue in the same path.

John Thompson

[dave_matheson]

speaking of Yamaha ... in 1970 my band was invited to perform at Expo 70 for a month as guests of the Japanese Gov't ... pretty cool gig for a 15 yr old teen tuba player !

in any event, we did get a few days to "play tourist", and one of our organized days off was spent visiting several Japanese factories ... yes, one of them was the Yamaha Musical Instrument factory, in Osaka.

Three things stood out in my 15 yr old mind of that factory tour that remain with me to this day. Kinda dumb recollections, but: (1) they all wore white cotton gloves and wore blue shirts (2) nobody smiled or talked - ever (3) I've never seen so many trumpet and trombone bells hanging from a wall in my entire life ... literally thousands of them.