Community Orchestra: Volunteers vs. Ringers

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Just curious how various "community" orchestras are structured around the country.

It would be useful to know where you live, too!

Thanks!

[NCSUSousa]

There are a few community bands in the Raleigh-Durham-Cary-Chapel Hill area of NC. Basically, one for each night of the week if that's your thing. None pay their players, and I don't think any of the conductors/directors are paid either. Some players in the Durham band play in one or more of the other bands in the area because they rehearse on other nights.

Also, What are you calling a 'Ringer'? Someone with a music degree? A college professor teaching music?
Someone who used to get paid for playing? Example - My dad played tuba in a US Army Band for a while (now retired) and has a music degree. Does he count as a 'ringer'? ... I suppose I should have asked this before answering the question.

Edit - Thanks for the response on this. There are also plenty of community orchestras here. Same deal, one for each night of the week.
The Durham Symphony Orchestra (one of the other places my dad plays his Tuba on occasion) was started as a volunteer group. They rehearse and perform at Duke. There are also similar groups at UNC-Chapel Hill and at NCSU. There's even one at Duke Medical Center that's just folks associated with the medical center (which is separate from Duke University). I don't play in one of these groups so I don't know their structure. There's also a small community orchestra in Sanford, NC (Lee County), about 45 minutes south of my house.
One I get a kick out of is the RTOOT. "Really Terrible Orchestra of the Triangle." http://rtoot.org/ They practice and play in Cary, NC.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the responses, but I would draw your attention to one point: the question is regarding a community ORCHESTRA, not bands.

Where I live, there is a very different business model for community bands, compared to orchestras.

P.S. - "ringers" refer to PAID players.

[PaulMaybery]

In and around Minnesota, I've been both a paid ringer and also "Mr. Freebie." A few well sponsored orchestras are generally amateur but need to present well on all instruments, hence they call in those of us with some experience to fill in. Sometimes it pays, sometimes not. If the conductor is a friend in need, I will help. Many of those orchestras are the only formidable culture in their area, and arguably do not compete with pros who are trying to eek out some living money. There is only one full time orch in Minnesota that supports life as a tuba player. Realistically I do not consider being a professional tubaist a viable occupation outside of major orchestras and service bands. A few other exceptions I will bow to.

On a good day in a perfect world, I would not play for free. There are very few "good days" any more, and certainly no perfect world. Is that 'idea'l or 'real?' That being said, I love to play, have high standards and will play the part as well as if a professional sub in the MN Orch or a sub in a struggling but worthy community orchestra. I'm the one who determines how well and seriously I take the gig. Not the greenbacks.

Paul "who figures there will always be cynics, but loving what you do is not being naive" Maybery

A Danish philosopher Piet Hein is quoted" "Naive you are if you believe, life favors those who aren't naive."

[bort]

This reminds me of a teacher's band I played with in Baltimore about 10 years ago.

During the first rehearsal, the guy next to me was just a KILLER player. Nailed everything the first time, clean articulations, great sound. I thought he was just some band teacher, and I said something naive like "hey, you sound great." He modestly said thanks, and then introduced himself as Kevin Ladd, tuba player for the Syracuse Symphony for 20 years (or whatever). Whoops!

Years earlier in college, I had a similar experience in a community band, that tubist was Lenny Jung, retired US Navy band (yes, he had the Martin).

My lesson (twice) learned -- don't assume there aren't pro's among you.

[Tubajug]

In my head a "community" group is volunteers whether it's a band or an orchestra. I've only been a member of my community orchestra for two seasons now, and any time we need extra players, they are volunteers as well (although I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they don't get paid either).

We have the Lincoln Community Concert Band (all volunteers), the Lincoln Municipal Band (paid, they have one rehearsal and one performance each week during the summer months), the Lincoln Civic Orchestra (the group I play in, attached to a local Wesleyan university where the parts that aren't filled by students are the community players) and Lincoln's Symphony Orchestra (a professional orchestra where most of the university music faculty play as well as many current and former local music teachers. I was going to audition when it looked there would be an opening, but I'm not that good...and the guy decided to keep his position, but I probably wouldn't have won it anyway).

[tbn.al]

No one except the conductor and the principal violin are paid in our orchestra. There are many who do get paid for other gigs but choose to play for free in this orchestra. I guess it's because we are such cool people to be around.

http://www.georgiaphilharmonic.org/" target="_blank

[Tom]

...a community orchestra...that was part amateur and part paid-ringers (who came to two rehearsals and the concert). Occasionally, that situation would create hard feelings, particularly when (well...) incapable amateur "principals" (typically ww's) had their solos taken away.

Yep.

Been there, done that, walked away from it all.

In my case it was of the type that tubajug describes: a "community" orchestra affiliated with a college, but paid for ringers to come in and fill out sections where the college's students didn't or couldn't. A couple of things happened:

1. The student musicians, which played 3 hour rehearsals every week, grew upset that the ringers only had to play one rehearsal and the concerts AND got paid.

2. The music director started seating the ringers ahead of the students in nearly every case, further fueling the fire.

3. The music director (in my opinion) went too far with ringers and became sloppy with the choice of ringers. We regularly ended up with ringers that were playing FAR below the level of the students which was what I would call "typical to good college" level.

4. The few community members in the group (adult) who were NOT ringers started to realize that there were others who were brought in for dress + concert only and the orchestra was paying them. Most of them voted with their feet and regretfully walked away.

The orchestra was just too divided. Too much drama. Questionable quality. At the end of the first season I did with them, all of the wind, brass, and percussion students walked away from the group (they had alternative ensembles available to them: wind ensemble, symphonic band, etc.). The music director couldn't figure out what happened. The group has never really recovered (this happened over 10 years ago) and to this day only the school's string students play in the group as they've got no other choice.

It taught me that mixing students and ringers isn't a great idea and mixing amateur adults with paid ringers isn't a good idea (I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's my experience). Ever since then I have kept the two types of "gigs" separate. Either I will play in a community organization where NOBODY is paid or I accept a paying gig where EVERYONE is paid. Mixing the two was nothing but trouble and high drama for me. There will always be SOMEONE that is upset about not being paid and they WILL make sure everyone knows about it.

[opus37]

I play in an orchestra that is organized each Christmas season for a very high level Christmas Concert series. We practice twice and play 3 concerts. The orchestra is a mixture of ringers and volunteers. The volunteers are students, church members, or close friends of the church. The ringers are really good and should be paid. We all love doing the concerts. This arrangement seems to work out for everyone.

[The Big Ben]

I played in a community orchestra for a few years. I was playing the trumpet and it was for Christmas. I had a Bach piece set in front of me that really needed a piccolo trumpet and I didn't have one. I learned the part on the Bb Trumpet and was able to play it moderately well (with the trills and flourishes) but, of course, it didn't sound like a piccolo trumpet because it wasn't. The same concert had something written in D for the D trumpet. Another instrument I didn't have. I transposed the piece (pre-computer so I had someone who did that sort of thing write it out for me) and learned how to play it. I went through all of the rehearsals with no complaints but, the night of the concert, I find out they hired a guy from the Seattle Symphony to do it and I was invited to sit in the audience.

We were all paying to play in this orchestra but there were about 10 who had some sort of professional experience somewhere in their past and demanded to play for free. They got away with it. The orchestra board also hired players from the semi-professional orchestra in a town about 50 miles from us and paid them with the money we paid to play. A professional should be paid and that's not the problem. That we were given music that we couldn't play in the way that the orchestra board wanted it played was the problem.

That was the last year for me and haven't been back.

[sloan]

didn't participate in your poll...

The only time I've been hired by a community band

Community...hired...? oxymoron!

[sloan]

I know of one community group where a member of the clarinet section is a killer tuba player...

[Mark]

In the Seattle area, if you want a harpists to play with your orchestra, you pay them. So, pretty much every community orchestra has at least one ringer.

[Three Valves]

A "featured artist" or invited guest in the program would be nice.

Unless I was asked to remove myself to the audience.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

In the Seattle area, if you want a harpists to play with your orchestra, you pay them. So, pretty much every community orchestra has at least one ringer.

That is the problem....if you have empty chairs, without the resources to fill those chairs with volunteers, what choices do you have?

[swillafew]

what choices do you have?

I have occasionally seen a keyboard used to a wonderful effect, supplying missing sounds. If I was in front of the group I would explore this option. Alternately, you can find people who make poor sounds.

[Antontuba]

The orchestra I play in will hire about 8 violins, 3 bass, and percussion (timpanist is part of main membership core) to round out the group. Usually I see the same faces, which is a good thing, and they are exceptional players. They attend the two dress rehearsals and the gig - three concerts per year, late fall, winter, and spring.

Adam
Antontuba

[Tubaryan12]

...They could have done their concert(s) with no tuba player...or called a high school and asked someone (if old enough to drive, and reliable enough to show up) to sightread their music.

How long would the baton-waver "stick around" (pun intended) without being "hired" ?

bloke "a member of the community, and a friend of most of the members in both of the local-to-me community bands"

We bring in a few folks to cover parts when we need them for strings and percussion. Winds and brass can generally hold their own.

Tubaryan "President, ESO" 12
in my final season as Pres. and as a regular member