Rotor Trouble on an old Alexander 163

[EMC]

Hey everyone, I have an Alexander 163 from the early 70s and recently the rotors have been giving me a lot of trouble, being that they have become quite slow and hard, smooth but slow and almost difficult to press. I've taken them apart and cleaned them out soaked them in white vinegar (twice) and they are "ok" for a day or two and then start getting slower again. does anyone have any oil reccomendations? Because even hetman 11 seems to hinder them rather than help them, or perhaps it's just time to get the whole rotor system replaced/repaired ect. Any and all advice is well appreciated!

[Dan Schultz]

Rotors were never intended to be running in oil except for the application of a drop or two on the spindle bearings on each end once in a while. Oil on the periphery of the rotor drags on the inside of the rotor body. You need to get everything cleaned up (including the tuning circuits and especially the leadpipe and start over lubricating only the spindle bearings and the mechanical moving contact places on the linkage.

Now.... IF the spindle bearings are worn and the rotors are dragging on the inside of the housings necessitating the need for oil to even make them work... it's time to take the horn to someone who knows what they are doing for a complete inspection. Could be that a quick rotor bearing swaging is in order.

[doublebuzzing]

Rotors were never intended to be running in oil except for the application of a drop or two on the spindle bearings on each end once in a while. Oil on the periphery of the rotor drags on the inside of the rotor body. You need to get everything cleaned up (including the tuning circuits and especially the leadpipe and start over lubricating only the spindle bearings and the mechanical moving contact places on the linkage.

Now.... IF the spindle bearings are worn and the rotors are dragging on the inside of the housings necessitating the need for oil to even make them work... it's time to take the horn to someone who knows what they are doing for a complete inspection. Could be that a quick rotor bearing swaging is in order.

Do you think it is unnecessary to put some oil down the leadpipe into the valves? Some people say to send some oil into the valves (either by leadpipe or taking the slides out and putting a few drops down them in the valves) in addition to all the bearings, etc. What do you think?

[scottw]

Rotors were never intended to be running in oil except for the application of a drop or two on the spindle bearings on each end once in a while. Oil on the periphery of the rotor drags on the inside of the rotor body.

Do you think it is unnecessary to put some oil down the leadpipe into the valves? Some people say to send some oil into the valves (either by leadpipe or taking the slides out and putting a few drops down them in the valves) in addition to all the bearings, etc. What do you think?

What he said--he is the technician, not "some people"!

[Dan Schultz]

....
Do you think it is unnecessary to put some oil down the leadpipe into the valves? Some people say to send some oil into the valves (either by leadpipe or taking the slides out and putting a few drops down them in the valves) in addition to all the bearings, etc. What do you think?

Different strokes for different folks but I've always found CLEAN rotors to be the fastest ones.

I won't say that I've never oiled my valves by dumping oil down the leadpipe or slides. But.... when I have it's been oil so thin that it can almost be considered a cleaning solvent.

I once read information that Miraphone included with their rotary tubas that said the moisture in the players breath is enough to seal the rotors and oil on points other than the bearings was not necessary.

[MackBrass]

STAY AWAY FROM THE SYNTHETIC OILS.

These oils will leave a residue on the valves and casings making them sluggesh over time. I bet once you clean out the valves and the casing and use regular basic oils like blue juice or any basic oils you will notice a big difference. Keep us posted and good luck.

One question, did you ever have these valve issue before the hetmans?

[Lars Trawen]

A copy of a previous post:

According to recommendation from Melton/Meinl Weston never oil rotary valves through lead pipe or valve slides.
They if anybody should know everything about rotary valves.

From their home site:
"Rotary Valves should be oiled by applying rotary valve oil at the spindle bearings (under the back cap and under the stop arm) once a week. The moving parts of the Lever mechanisms and Steel Ball linkages should be oiled with the rotary valve oil monthly.
Note: Please do not oil the inside rotors through the leadpipe or the valve slides as this will only wash the slide grease into the valve and slow down the rotor."

In your case, cleaning of the valve is the only way to solve the problem.
After that, brush your teeth carefully before playing. And during the playing, don't eat anything or drink beer or coke, only pure water.
/Lars

[Roger Lewis]

Go here:

http://www.uni.edu/drfun/repair_video/r ... index.html" target="_blank

To learn everything you need to know about rotary valves.

Roger

[EMC]

Rotors were never intended to be running in oil except for the application of a drop or two on the spindle bearings on each end once in a while. Oil on the periphery of the rotor drags on the inside of the rotor body. You need to get everything cleaned up (including the tuning circuits and especially the leadpipe and start over lubricating only the spindle bearings and the mechanical moving contact places on the linkage.

Now.... IF the spindle bearings are worn and the rotors are dragging on the inside of the housings necessitating the need for oil to even make them work... it's time to take the horn to someone who knows what they are doing for a complete inspection. Could be that a quick rotor bearing swaging is in order.

Thanks a lot! They are much faster again not quite up to the speed of my bill bells, but they are much more useable now, I'm thinking of having the entire horn rebuilt soon ( it was in the back seat of a car that was in an accident and it doesn't quite feel the same anymore) so when that happens I'll definitely have the rotor a checked out anyway. Thanks Again

[EMC]

STAY AWAY FROM THE SYNTHETIC OILS.

These oils will leave a residue on the valves and casings making them sluggesh over time. I bet once you clean out the valves and the casing and use regular basic oils like blue juice or any basic oils you will notice a big difference. Keep us posted and good luck.

One question, did you ever have these valve issue before the hetmans?

I only really had these issues after I put the horn away for about a year and then picked it up again, for what it's worth I DID find and wash out a bunch of gunk out of the horn when I took apart the rotors.

[EMC]

A copy of a previous post:

According to recommendation from Melton/Meinl Weston never oil rotary valves through lead pipe or valve slides.
They if anybody should know everything about rotary valves.

From their home site:
"Rotary Valves should be oiled by applying rotary valve oil at the spindle bearings (under the back cap and under the stop arm) once a week. The moving parts of the Lever mechanisms and Steel Ball linkages should be oiled with the rotary valve oil monthly.
Note: Please do not oil the inside rotors through the leadpipe or the valve slides as this will only wash the slide grease into the valve and slow down the rotor."

In your case, cleaning of the valve is the only way to solve the problem.
After that, brush your teeth carefully before playing. And during the playing, don't eat anything or drink beer or coke, only pure water.
/Lars

I admit I am guilty of putting oil directly into the slides, probably hasn't helped.

[doublebuzzing]

So Blue Juice probably wouldn't be the best oil to put down the slides? Also, is SuperSlick rotor oil thick enough for the spindles?

[Dan Schultz]

.... i looked at the 3/1 container, it says it cleans as it lubricates... is it too thick to use IN the rotors? i need something that will clean them out. i've tried soapy water, but water can't do much with lanolin. maybe the 3/1 will break it down?

WHOA! Stop right there. 3 in 1 oil is WAAAAY too heavy to be dripping down the leadpipe! THAT's the cause of your sluggish rotors.

I mentioned earlier that I AM NOT an advocate of putting oil down the leadpipe and through slides simply because of what most folks consider 'oil'. Lamp oil or something similar in viscosity or thinner... acting as a solvent and in generous quantities... is acceptable as it will tend to wash crap out of the rotors and thin out spindle oil that will eventually migrate into the rotor body.

[EMC]

Thanks a lot! They are much faster again not quite up to the speed of my bill bells, but they are much more useable now, I'm f thinking of having the entire horn rebuilt soon ( it was in the back seat of a car that was in an accident and it doesn't quite feel the same anymore) so when that happens I'll definitely have the rotor a checked out anyway. Thanks Again

Interesting as the valves on my Alex 163 are considerably faster (and lighter feeling) than those on my MW Bell model.

well even when I first bought the horn they were never lightning quick I was always under the impression that rotors were just slower than pistons, at least that's what I thought at the time. however I'm the second owner and I don't know all the history of this particular horn so maybe it really could benefit from having the springs replaced Or linkages upgraded ect.

[jeopardymaster]

Here's a +1 for flowing some oil through your leadpipe from time to time while riffling the valves. Of course, if you were to put kerosene down there you'd be apt to taste it for quite a while afterward, so I'd have to call that suboptimal. However, I had a similar sluggishness issue with my Alex BBb, and on Dan's recommendation I have taken to putting ultra-pure lamp oil in the leadpipe PRN for about a year now. If you go this route, make sure you get the odorless stuff. I've found it on Amazon for around $25 for 100 ounces. I can tell it's in there but I certainly don't get the noxious fumes that come out of kerosene - or some strains of valve oil, for that matter. And the valves work a whole lot better now. I just wish I could play better. Maybe if I practiced.

[EMC]

I like using the thickest-possible (and if you can tolerate the odor: 3-in-1, because it's cheap and "just about right") oil on the spindles, and (yes) I DO slosh GENEROUS thin oil down through the bore past the rotors (again: I go CHEAP..."salvaged" valve oil from pawn-shop-bought trumpets/etc. or lamp oil) to discourage the build-up of filth and to discourage the build-up of lime... Further (well...) I think it contributes to somewhat sealing off the "tolerance" space between rotors and their casings.

The excess runs out through the water key, and (at the angle that a rotary tuba is held) I really can't see valve oil picking up much slide grease from the slides...particularly since I really do not grease my slides (as I tend to just dump valve oil or 3-in-1 on my slides - as all of them on all my instruments work well and are properly aligned, because I don't like having to keep a container of "grease" sitting around next to - or in the bags of - my tubas.) I can't imagine this doing any harm...and it costs no real money.

Ive used it before and Personaly I love 3 in 1 for my bill bell but it seriously slows down my Alexanders rotors, I've started using really thin thin oils and they seem to be keeping it at a working speed, the bell doesn't seem to be picky about what oil I use the rotors stay fast, but Alex isn't so accepting.

[EMC]

Here's a +1 for flowing some oil through your leadpipe from time to time while riffling the valves. Of course, if you were to put kerosene down there you'd be apt to taste it for quite a while afterward, so I'd have to call that suboptimal. However, I had a similar sluggishness issue with my Alex BBb, and on Dan's recommendation I have taken to putting ultra-pure lamp oil in the leadpipe PRN for about a year now. If you go this route, make sure you get the odorless stuff. I've found it on Amazon for around $25 for 100 ounces. I can tell it's in there but I certainly don't get the noxious fumes that come out of kerosene - or some strains of valve oil, for that matter. And the valves work a whole lot better now. I just wish I could play better. Maybe if I practiced.

lol practicing helps, especially with large bore tubas, I'll keep this in mind and try it

[doublebuzzing]

Does anyone know if Blue Juice is considered a thin valve oil?

[bisontuba]

Does anyone know if Blue Juice is considered a thin valve oil?

Yes-thin oil.

[southtubist]

On my Alex I use STP 40 and lamp oil. I put straight lamp oil on my linkages and rotor bearings. On all of my tuning slides (except the first valve) I put straight STP 40 on the slides. On my first valve, I put a thin film of STP 40 on the slide. I then routinely add lamp oil the the first slide in order to make it faster.

This tuba has the best valve set I've ever experienced. I never oil the valves by pouring oil down the slides. I barely use any oil when I do lube up.