Question about 4-valve CC tubas

[bort]

Random thoughts as I'm up late working...

For a 4-valve CC tuba like a Miraphone 186, how effective would it be to add a RH thumb trigger to the 1st valve slide? Minor horn surgery, and certainly cheaper and easier than trying to add a valve. I've seen F tubas that have this type of RH thumb setup, so I'm wondering how well it might work for a 4-valve 186. Not *quite* as functional as a 5th valve, but seems like an okay compromise? What are the drawbacks?

Has anyone tried this before?

[Ferguson]

I'll bite, random thoughts back at ya'. Up late. Writey. The trick is to tune the low F. And the D.

I'd make it simpler. If one's going to play a 4-valve CC tuba and really work the angle to play it mechanically in tune down low, embrace its 4-valveness with the quirks and opportunities therein. One can be mechanically accurate, but I'd start with less Rube Goldberg first. I'm going to have to move slides, so I'd polish up the first slide right away to get that moving quickly by hand. For a slide stop, you can get something made or some trumpet parts, but start with a string. It's free. Maybe you later upgrade to a metal slide stop, or maybe just to a leather string. How much tubing adds 1/4 step to a CC? About 6", 15cm, yes? So 3" each side. You might only get a couple of inches of travel out of the first slide, so maybe it's 1/6 step longer at most pull. Worth it? Not worth a remote trigger because you can reach it already. I could use a remote trigger for the second slide like you see on a Rudy Meinl.

As with a single valve bass trombone, you can make (F) slide adjustments based on the music at hand. ("Pull E slide during a rest.") The 186 has several slides you can pull. Some 5-valve CC players pitch the 4th loop a bit low so 2-4 C# is right on. D and G is then played 1-3 with first pulled out. Seems reasonable to lean that way on a 4-valve tuba too. The King 2280 euphonium is set up to take advantage of a long fourth loop so its low Eb 1-4 is right on. What sort of 4th pull is available on a 186? You could try that King tuning.
What sort of third slide pull is there on a 186 CC? Can you get the third slide really low, like to 2-step (Belgian?) tuning? It's got some pull. If so, maybe you could Belgianize and play low F 1-2-3 with first slide pulled.

You could also shorten the first slide and push in so a 1-2-4 low F plays a little higher.

Interesting questions. I like hearing various mechanical solutions to pitch issues.

F
/thinks most folks just lip the low F up.

[thevillagetuba]

Some thoughts:

The first and third slides are relatively easy to get to in the front of the horn. I would look at a slide pull to the fourth (which, if memory serves me, I believe has the most pull). If the fourth has the room to make this work, then it will set your horn up very similar to that of a dependent fifth setup (just without all of the extra tubing to make it such). This would allow for F to be good as 14, and with some pull on 1, and maybe a little on 3, you should be able to get D with 134. Maybe some extra pull on 1 & 3 and you could get C# to work as 1234.

Though, if you have enough pull on 4, you might get enough to get that F almost in tune with just 4 plus your trigger. It's been like 8 years since I've played a 186, so I can't really remember how much the slides allow, but I would invest in a trigger for the slide that is the hardest to get to while playing.

My two cents (which is probably worth even less given the pros on here)

[swillafew]

I have a dream about putting a trigger on the 4th valve of my 4 valve BBb tuba.

Recent increases in the "normal" length of the slide pull, combined with some extra low register practice, have calmed this dream. Practicing the lower notes on my F tuba reinforces tuning my scale, and it has been productive to use both horns to train my chops.

[PaulMaybery]

I vote for the 4th pull (or trigger) if there would be enough length to the pull. If not, maybe a re-routing of the 4th circuit might do the trick.

I've often thought of an ascending valve about a 1/4 step somewhere on the horn.
Basically the valve is engaged as a default setting and when operated would cut off that amount of tubing. I happen to have an old trombone with that set up.and have seen mid-19th century cornets with an ascending valve. Problem is that somewhere you would need to remove a slice of the bugle to route through the valve and its attending knuckle. Probably after the valve cluster around the tuning slide. HMM!!!
Maybe this weekends project in the shop.

[Tom]

My CC tuba of the last 10 years or so has been a 4 valve Alexander 163. Like many Alexander tubas, a previous owner decided to do a main tuning slide rod. I didn't like it and didn't feel that *I* really needed it with this particular Alexander, so I had it removed. Yeah, I know you're talking about triggers for the 1st slide rather than rods for the main slide, but it feel it's relevant because of what I discovered AFTER it was gone...

The key to making a 4 valve CC work, in my experience, lies not in main tuning slide rods nor does it lie in the first valve slide. It is in setting up the 4th valve slide - and, to a slightly lesser degree - the third valve slide. Leave the main tuning slide alone. Then, only pull or push the 1st slide for "micro tuning" as necessary - but in my case, not constantly.

Let's not forget about the 2nd valve slide either...on some tubas 2nd valve triggers work very well and are actually quite useful. I know that Wade came up with a 2nd slide device back in his Alexander days. He and I corresponded about it, but I never pulled the trigger (ha!) and actually did that on mine. I don't think I need it on this tuba. My F tuba, on the other hand, has a 2nd trigger that I find quite useful. Would a 6th valve be better? Probably, but I'm quite happy with my unpopular-on-Tubenet-out-of-style F tuba.

All of that to say that I don't dream of adding triggers to my 4 valve CC tuba and wouldn't start with the 1st slide if I did.

[oedipoes]

Any options-pictures-drawings for a push-pull trigger on the 4th valve slide? (operated by left hand)
1,2,4 push in 4th for low F
2,4 pull 4th for low F# or C#

I use these combinations on my 4-valve Rudy BBb (transpose above mentioned notes 1 tone), moving 4th by hand works, but I'd prefer a trigger I think, if it would allow pushing and pulling...

[thevillagetuba]

Any options-pictures-drawings for a push-pull trigger on the 4th valve slide? (operated by left hand)
1,2,4 push in 4th for low F
2,4 pull 4th for low F# or C#

I use these combinations on my 4-valve Rudy BBb (transpose above mentioned notes 1 tone), moving 4th by hand works, but I'd prefer a trigger I think, if it would allow pushing and pulling...

You can do a similar set up to what MW does on their 45SLP: you just have a lever or paddle attached to a spring and a rod that pulls out the slide. See picture linked below (45 pulls the 2nd slide).
http://www.hornstashonline.com/images/p ... /45SLP.jpg" target="_blank

[Tubajug]

I owned a 4-valve 186 CC as my first horn (that I purchased, not borrowed) and that 4th valve slide was easily accessible in the back. I don't see a need for a trigger device when it's easily accessible like that. It had plenty of pull on it to get just about anything in tune if I remember right.

[oedipoes]

I think - on a Miraphone 186 4-rotor - it would be best to pull/trigger SOME for 2-4, and to pull/trigger MORE for 1-4 (not "push" for 1-2-4) low F. Pro'lly, fairly good solutions for Eb and D "down there" could be found by pulling-out the 4th slide as well... (probably nothing practical for C# "down there").

Eb would be 1, 3, 4 and pull 4th

[pjv]

I have never ever played a tuba yet where I could play a half-step above the pedal, in tune with ease, using 1234 on a non-compensating four banger. (Sure, there are always exceptions.)

Going the 2 step 3rd valve might be the way to go.

Has anybody ever tried using a 3 step 4th valve slide?

I remember my very first CC tuba was a Conn that came with a normal 4th slide plus an extra 3 step 4th slide. I've no recollection of the practicality of this slide. I was very young and it was my first CC tuba experience. My teacher wanted me to get used to the standard mash combinations (fair enough) so I never really experimented with this slide.
Now that I'm older I often think back to that neglected 3-step 4th tuning slide and wonder if we could have been happy together...

[bort]

Seems to me that a lot of playas fuss over issues they never they never/rarely ever encounter in their real life of producing actual fart noises.

Yeah, yeah, I'm an instigator for this one. But I think it was an interesting conversation, FWIW. What made me wonder was watching some German and Austrian brass ensemble videos on YouTube. Lots of different rotary F tuba setups with various slide triggers and stuff.

Personally, I don't like pushing/pulling slides, and if there's a way to do that with my fingers and not my entire hand, that seems ideal. To paraphrase Joe, things are easier when your left hand is focused on holding up the tuba.

Also FWIW, I've never enjoyed moving around the 4th valve slide on a Miraphone 186/188. I don't find it all that easy to deal with "on the fly", especially not compared to when the 4th slide is closer to the top bow.

Nothing wrong with 4-valve CC tubas, I've owned a few and it's never been a huge problem. Just curious.

[PaulMaybery]

At least it has been done once. If this is that to which you are referring.
A German brass manufacturer and general repair shop.

I suppose a good tech in this country could build that for you for either RH or LH.

I have the same thing, more or less, on the Wessex/Jin Bao Cimbasso. albeit LH.

Go to the section marked WORKSHOP

http://www.josefgopp.de/index.php?id=27&L=1" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[PaulMaybery]

Thanks for the two much clearer shots. From looking at the lever, (and where the pivot point is) it appears that there is about a 3 to 1 ratio and that about an inch of movement at the thumb will yield 3 inches of travel on the slide. I wonder how stiff that might be.

[bort]

Yep, that's exactly what I imagined!

[PaulMaybery]

I recall seeing somewhere a scissor device where when the 1st v was pulled or pushed, the main slide went out and in respectively, thus doubling the effective length.

[bort]

I recall seeing somewhere a scissor device where when the 1st v was pulled or pushed, the main slide went out and in respectively, thus doubling the effective length.

That sounds both very cool and very complicated.

FWIW, one of the most fun tubas I've played in recent memory was a brand new gold brass 4-valve Miraphone 186 CC. If felt, sounded, and played like a "sports car" tuba.

[PaulMaybery]

Actually, the scissors idea is rather simple, with what is more or less a "see-saw" in between the 1st valve slide. When one end goes up - the other end goes down. A spring and stop-rod would sort of put some regulation on how far the travel goes and if it returns to it's "intune" spot.