buzzing on the mouthpiece...NO one agrees with me, EXCEPT...

[happyroman]

So, yeah, use it or lose it in any case, but it isn't just muscle tissue developing here, and probably not in the lips either.

Where the analogy breaks down, though, is that as speech and vocal folds developed together over eons, they're almost guaranteed to work out. Tubas and lips are a more recent thing, with less selective pressure etc. Development is not guaranteed to produce desired results.

Actually, the lips are definitely muscles, including the orbicularis oris, the thick bands that are oriented basically horizontally across the face. Interwoven with these are tiny, "basket weave" muscles that are responsible for retraction, protrusion, elevation, and depression. In other words, these smaller muscles create the shape changes that are responsible for the changes in pitch and tone color when we play. All of these muscles are subject to hypertrophy when we practice.

And I agree that development for development's sake does not necessarily produce the desired result.

[happyroman]

At the most basic level, my lips are responding to the air column too.

I am probably just doing a poor job of expressing myself. With the lips, the air is simply the fuel source. Without the air column passing between the lips, like a bow of a string instrument, there could be no vibration. However, the fuel source is not the cause of the vibration. The lips vibrate in response to a signal sent to them from the brain through the motor nerves in the face (specifically, the 7th cranial nerve). The quality of that vibration is greatly affected by the air, which is why Mr. Jacobs would often spend so much time with students working on the efficient use of the air. He wanted a thick column of air under very low pressure so that the lips would vibrate as efficiently as possible. However, he also stated that just because we blow the air across the lips, they do not have to vibrate. They can resist the air, and he said it was not really a close battle. The lips easily win if they are resisting the air.

[roweenie]

If Mr. Jacobs said you should do whatever works best for you, wouldn't it then be a conflict to tell someone they are wrong, simply because they reached success via a method other than yours?

P.S. I'm not trying to "split hairs"; I honestly want to know if I've been *wrong* for the last 40 years by neglecting to buzz my mouthpiece.

[jsmn4vu]

In more than a half-century of observing musical pedagogy, I've sometimes marvelled at how various great teachers can sometimes give pieces of advice that are diametrically opposed, yet produce world-class students. The point: a piece of advice from a master teacher is not necessarily a one-size-fits-all proposition. Different students need different things.

Might I go so far as to suggest that mouthpiece buzzing is essential for some, but detrimental to others? I have no factual basis for this, but years of experience suggest that it is probably true.

[Three Valves]

Is that you, buzzing??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stf1jnwgASE" target="_blank

[roweenie]

If Mr. Jacobs said you should do whatever works best for you, wouldn't it then be a conflict to tell someone they are wrong, simply because they reached success via a method other than yours?

What answer you looking for? We can all do what we want, how we want. If you don't like buzzing and can still go win an audition or are simply 'satisfied' with your playing, then great.

Tuben, I don't understand why you've gotten so upset over my post.

Furthermore, I don't presume to answer my own questions; that's why I ask them.

In addition, I will contribute as I see fit (within the confines of the rules, that is).

[roweenie]

Tuben, I don't understand why you've gotten so upset over my post.

Ha.... You've not seen me upset.

Oh - I just *thought* you were upset - my bad

BTW - for future reference, so I don't make the same mistake twice, how will I know when you are upset?

[happyroman]

If Mr. Jacobs said you should do whatever works best for you, wouldn't it then be a conflict to tell someone they are wrong, simply because they reached success via a method other than yours?

P.S. I'm not trying to "split hairs"; I honestly want to know if I've been *wrong* for the last 40 years by neglecting to buzz my mouthpiece.

First of all, no, you are not wrong, nor have you ever been wrong, for not buzzing on the mouthpiece. I don't think anyone in this thread has said anything that even resembles this implication. What I have been trying to say is that, when done correctly, it is a valuable tool from which anyone could benefit (assuming proper application). Note that this is not the approach Lindberg takes. He clearly believes that buzzing on the mouthpiece has no value (not just for him, but for anyone) and implies that you are wrong if you do so. Again, I quote: "When you practice on the mouthpiece, you practice a horrible sound."

As far as Mr. Jacobs saying that one should do whatever works best for them, he is specifically talking about the embouchure in terms of placement and shape, etc. He didn't care what your embouchure looked like (within reason) as long as you sounded great. There is a difference between this and your statement, as you seem to imply he was talking about playing in general. If your statement was correct, he would not have been such a strong proponent of mouthpiece practice as an efficient way to learn to play a brass instrument, and would not have used it will all of his students.

He has also has stated many times that there are many great artists that do things differently from the way he taught. But he believed very strongly in the value of mouthpiece practice and for good reason.

[roweenie]

Andy, thank you for your well thought out and gracious answer. You could have been a diplomat with the communicative skills you possess!

However, maybe Tuben was right, and I wasn't clear in my question. The implication is that if your "mouthpiece only buzz" is different than your "mouthpiece + horn buzz", then according to one school of thought (of which I have the highest respect, mind you) you are therefore doing something wrong.

I'd like an honest and forthright answer to this question (true or false, and maybe some evidence to substantiate/refute the claim), preferably without rancor or prejudice.

[happyroman]

Andy, thank you for your well thought out and gracious answer. You could have been a diplomat with the communicative skills you possess!

However, maybe Tuben was right, and I wasn't clear in my question. The implication is that if your "mouthpiece only buzz" is different than your "mouthpiece + horn buzz", then according to one school of thought, you are therefore doing something wrong.

I'd like an honest and forthright answer to this question (true or false), preferably without rancor or prejudice.

First, thanks for the kind words.

I honestly don't know how one could differentiate between their buzz (i.e., the sound of the buzz) on the mouthpiece alone and the buzz when the mouthpiece is in the tuba. I believe that Mr. Jacobs would say that he wanted them to be the same because he said that the instrument is simply an amplifier of what we are buzzing into the mouthpiece, acting like a megaphone. Physically, the lips should be vibrating in the same manner either way (psycho-motor response). When practicing on the mouthpiece, he wanted as much "buzz" in the sound as possible (as opposed to an airy sound with little buzz and mostly air sound). The more buzz in the sound on the mouthpiece, the more resonance one would produce when the mouthpiece is placed in the instrument.

What he would say is that he would not want us focusing on how it feels when we play or when we buzz, even though it will feel different, but that is a different subject from right or wrong.

The only other difference I can think of has to do with our actual approach to playing. I believe that Mr. Jacobs would definitely say that if our approach to playing on the mouthpiece alone is different than when we are playing the tuba, then our approach on the tuba is wrong, which is basically paraphrasing what Chris Olka talks about in his video I posted earlier in the thread. If we are doing something physically different on the tuba than we are on the mouthpiece, then what we are doing on the tuba is wrong. I believe that is what Mr. Jacobs is talking about.

And, maybe wrong is too strong of a word. Maybe it is better to say that if what we are doing on the tuba is different from what we are doing on the mouthpiece, what we are doing on the tuba is less efficient.

[Donn]

"Wrong" means "not what I teach, so either change or take lessons from someone else."

Any other meaning, you have to decide whether you accept or not.

[happyroman]

"Wrong" means "not what I teach, so either change or take lessons from someone else."

Any other meaning, you have to decide whether you accept or not.

I am usually pretty perceptive, but even after reading this post several times, I have no clue what you are trying to say.

When you say "not what I teach" to whom are you referring? Are you saying that this would be Mr. Jacobs definition of wrong?

[Donn]

When you say "not what I teach" to whom are you referring? Are you saying that this would be Mr. Jacobs definition of wrong?

Yes, or anyone's who teaches. Jacobs, Olka, you, all must be free to believe and teach what you think is right. Which evidently includes, different with-tuba and without-tuba buzz is wrong.

Other players violate this principle but play tuba effectively, so there are two different, in roweenie's phrase, schools of thought - "what I teach."

Since these two are both proven right by example, I would hope we would not need to have them fight it out for supremacy. Say no to absolutism.

[Donn]

Without the air column passing between the lips, like a bow of a string instrument, there could be no vibration. However, the fuel source is not the cause of the vibration. The lips vibrate in response to a signal sent to them from the brain through the motor nerves in the face (specifically, the 7th cranial nerve).

Sort of like a fly can buzz its wings?

Interesting trivia about insect wing operation - there apparently are two different ways it can work. Insects who buzz at less that 100hz can manage this, with their small wings, short neural pathways and highly evolved special purpose muscles, with the simplest scheme where the muscle contracts once per nerve impulse. Insects who exceed that rate, for example bumblebees, use asynchronous muscles that contracts more than once per nerve impulse, so they can beat their wings faster than the nervous system can send pulses.

[Donn]

Galileo and his peers were duking it out over more concrete matters.

[Michael Bush]

Galileo rejected influential people's opinions and common knowledge in favor of looking further.

I'm likely wrong here. In particular instances - Galileo was right...but was anything-but congratulated for it.

And Galileo lacked an adequate mathematics to prove his point, which is why he lost. He just sort of knew he was right intuitively... and he turned out to be right later, thanks to Leibniz and Newton, not himself.

And FWIW, I agree with your intuition. But we're still hanging out here waiting for something like "an adequate mathematics" to prove we're right.

[Michael Bush]

The trumpet player video showed open vibrating lips (much like the shape of the bassoon reed and the oboe reed)...Was the video a fake...(??)

I doubt very much it was a fake. That argument makes sense to me.

[happyroman]

The trumpet player video showed open vibrating lips (much like the shape of the bassoon reed and the oboe reed)...Was the video a fake...(??)

I don't understand your point. When has anyone said that the vibrating lips (inside a mouthpiece) are not open?

[Doug Elliott]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoxnhjLMVBo" target="_blank

If you doubt that the lips close all the way, try pausing the video to catch different parts of the vibration cycle.
This film was taken at about 30,000 frames a second, with a highly specialized rotary prismatic lens. If I remember correctly, it was done in 1978, and he said it wasted 1/4 mile of film just getting up to speed each time.

The "aperture" you see at normal speed is an average of the full opening and closing; it's not just a hole.

I see no reason to think that tuba lips vibrate any differently, just slower.

[Ken Herrick]

Thank you, Doug, for your post with the video link. I knew this had been done but, not having it available, could not see much point in buying into the argument. I think this is pretty conclusive.

Yes Mark - the question was raised early in this discussion -
Re: buzzing on the mouthpiece...NO one agrees with me, EXCEP

Unread postby bloke » Fri May 01, 2015 11:56 pm

-" When I play the *tuba* my lips really don't touch each other."

As for whether or not mouthpiece buzzing is beneficial, well, ever since Jake got me onto it, "it works for me"