Brass Band tuba choices

[tofu]

FWIW, it's been a while since I've seen a brass band in the US that has a proper bass section. I'm not sure it matters for our Yankee ears!

In the last 5 months I've seen both the Salvation Army Chicago Staff Brass Band and the SA Canadian Staff band right here in the good old USA and both are very much in the British tradition with matching instruments. Both are superb groups and if you have a chance I recommend their concerts. This may seem surprising for an SA event, but the concerts had a lot of humor in them. As far as Yankee ears I really prefer the sound/blend/intonation/execution of the great British Brass Bands and I can very much hear the difference. To paraphrase United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart - I know it when I hear it. Not that there aren't some excellent groups here in the USA -we just need to find an American version of the late great Harry Mortimer!

[AndyCat]

back on topic:

- Was it John Fletcher's idea to put a 19" bell on a B&H Eb tuba ?

I believe so, to get the EEb big enough for the big orchestra stuff.

- As the 19"-bell English-style compensating Eb tubas sound like a nice fluffy marshmallow, didn't the (original design) 15" bell versions sound much MORE different from the B&H large BBb tubas than do the 19"-bell versions? (In the past, I owned a 15"-bell version, and the sound was certainly - and startlingly so - more "direct" and "clear" than the sound of *any* 19"-bell version.) Andy points out that there must be a clear distinction between the role of the Eb tuba and the BBb tuba in a British brass band...YET (at least to me) the 19"-bell Eb tuba thing (which today is standard issue) makes the two instruments LESS distinguishable from each other, sonically.

Yes, hence the re appearance of 17" bell EEb's recently. Good EEb players who get it over here use mouthpiece choice and playing style to try and get that distinction, but modern test piece writing (often by composers who DON'T get that distinction) mean that EEb players have to cover the"orchestral" range.

[Peach]

back on topic:
- I cannot imagine that he never played in British brass bands, but (assuming I'm correct about the 19" bell thing...and perhaps I'm not...) did this 19"-bell-on-Eb-tubas-thing occur AFTER he was an orchestra musician, and (by that time) was really only appearing as a guest soloist with brass bands (and not sitting in any brass bands' tuba sections with his 19" bell Eb tuba) ?
"

In one of his articles (for T.U.B.A.?) Fletch says he never played in a brass band - despite the odds, growing up in Yorkshire...
He played French Horn as well as Tuba in his younger days and I think when he was at Cambridge (reading Science) he only played Horn as there was a decent tuba player at college anyway!
His well known Gregson Concerto recording was with Besses o'th Barn band and Fletch also did occasional appearances as soloist with bands...

[modelerdc]

As far is the 19 inch bell e flat the story goes that Fletcher was playing the 15 inch bell in the LSO and Solti, having recently conducted Chicago asked Fletcher to bring in a bigger tuba. Besson put a 19 inch bell on the E flat, Solti was happy even though Fletcher felt it didn't actually put out more sound. My own favorite on the Besson E flat is the 17 inch bell.

[Jess Haney]

Andy has quoted it best. It is a fundamental aspect of "role" and "blend." I have seen our bass section evolve over the years and the big ticket items that we thought would be the resolving factor ended up not effecting the section as we had hoped. Our findings have shown it is a mix of:

player capability
player concept
leadership
ROLES
horn choice
horn configuration

Leadership and the roles of each player and the roles of the parts are a cornerstone to the concept. Eb and Bb are separate identities but work together and with other sections to move fluidly back and forth,and build the foundation. Horn choice (comps or not, key choice) play a small part but not quantifiable in a sense of "make or break." Everyone here has posted great questions and concerns to the idea of horn choice and whether or not they should move in the direction of the British comps or do matching sets, ect. But the main situation becomes roles, blend, and leadership. That is why some bands have non matching sets and they feel it is adequate, and some feel that a matching set will see them through to success. The player, his concept and ability make a big part of the equation, but leadership and roles also make a big part of sound concept and blend with who has what part and job. Horn choice does affect the sound and timbre of the section, but if the concept is not sufficient then the "solution" is subsequent to concept. There is no real correct answer to the "horn" predicament. the answer lies in the concept and role and your sections choice of tool to get the job done whether on CC, Bb, Eb, or F. The traditions between the US and Britain make for a different combination of factors between horn choice, availability, and what those players are familiar with. Will a matching set solve the problem? The answer is situational to the band and section.

[MaryAnn]

For intonation/blend problems, the very best thing I think can be done is to teach everyone to listen for and respond to beats. Just getting two people to play the same pitch without beats is nearly impossible in an amateur group, not to mention entire chords. Neither of the offending parties will budge, letting the beats rattle the windows and chandeliers. All it takes is a few minutes of someone in charge saying "OK, you (person A) are the one to hold the tone, and you (person B) are the one to change your pitch to get rid of the beats." Then switch. If you can get the entire band to start listening for and getting rid of beats, suddenly it won't matter who is playing what instrument.
The whole thing can be easily demonstrated with either an electric guitar tuning to harmonics (pick which one is the "right" one and fix the other, or two tone generators, one of which is assigned to have the "right" pitch.

[Patrase]

I agree with the above post about picking a player to play in tune with. Having recently got back in to the brass band scene the blending and intonation are the keys to producing a good sound that can support the rest of the band. We have had a couple of show pony EEb players previously and whilst they were technically great they didn't want to blend or listen and they cost us points in competitions. In our recent outing we spent a lot of time to really work on our tuning. We had a Sovereign Bb, a Neo Bb, a Miraphone rotary Eb and a sovereign Eb. There were certain notes that were consistently out of tune and required serious concentration and lipping to get us in tune. It would have been easier if we had matching instruments but with hard work and a lot of sectional time it can be resolved. Picking a leader to listen too was key.

[TheGoyWonder]

Update: the F tuba player said he wouldn't play a proper Eb bass even if it was provided, much less my 3/4-BBb-of-same-maker idea. There's always THAT guy, the wannabe who thinks he can play everything on an F. The "that guy" from my other band recently left to much rejoicing, but you can't always win.

So my idea is to just get a German-style BBb tuba for myself, then we'll have a German-style quorum. I still think it's odd that almost every US BBB has every specialty instrument, cornet/Eb cornet/alto horn/tiny baritone, but uses whatever tuba. And tuba is the easiest one to get, they were always imported not just when the BBB craze started.

[Biggs]

Update: the F tuba player said he wouldn't play a proper Eb bass even if it was provided, much less my 3/4-BBb-of-same-maker idea. There's always THAT guy, the wannabe who thinks he can play everything on an F. The "that guy" from my other band recently left to much rejoicing, but you can't always win.

So my idea is to just get a German-style BBb tuba for myself, then we'll have a German-style quorum. I still think it's odd that almost every US BBB has every specialty instrument, cornet/Eb cornet/alto horn/tiny baritone, but uses whatever tuba. And tuba is the easiest one to get, they were always imported not just when the BBB craze started.

dude, it's not the horn holding you back.

[The Big Ben]

If a near-optimal instrument set equals a couple hundred hours of collective practice/rehearsal time I'd say it was easily worth it.

The comments so far suggest that it doesn't and isn't.

[Donn]

On the other hand, if a guy's set to get into a new tuba, there are worse ways to spend money. I'd get an Italian tuba, though, to avoid forming an ethnic bloc with any of the other tubas and instead go for a sort of international ensemble.

[Dan Schultz]

Not having matching low brass doesn't seem to bother these guys much...


Lookin' good, guys!

(Lancaster Brass Band)

[barry grrr-ero]

Fire them all and get an electric bass. Then have a scrim made for the rear that shows four tuba players on it (with all matching compensators). Works every time.

[Dan Schultz]

I do not get what brass band traditionalists who are OK with CC tubas in groups fear and show hatred of F tubas in the groups, .

Because in the mind of some people, CC tubas are more 'blendy' like BBb's and Eb's than F tubas which can be more 'soloistic'. Modern supersized F tubas don't have the same effect and can be more Eb like in their timbre.

Along with a similar stupid mindset that mandates that one HAS to read treble clef tuba music!

[Dan Schultz]

.... Because in the mind of some people, CC tubas are more 'blendy' like BBb's and Eb's than F tubas which can be more 'soloistic'. Modern supersized F tubas don't have the same effect and can be more Eb like in their timbre.

Along with a similar stupid mindset that mandates that one HAS to read treble clef tuba music![/quote]

That's not a mindset, just a fact as 90% of the literature is only scored that way. Who's gonna pay someone to re-typeset those parts?[/quote]

I don't think ANYONE actually engraves or typesets plates any more. A few mouse clicks is all it takes to generate bass clef parts from popular notation software. Many American publishers make 'World Parts' available for the rest of The World. There's no damned reason why the Brits can't do the same. Tradition my patootie!

[Biggs]

I don't think ANYONE actually engraves or typesets plates any more. A few mouse clicks is all it takes to generate bass clef parts from popular notation software. Many American publishers make 'World Parts' available for the rest of The World. There's no damned reason why the Brits can't do the same. Tradition my patootie!

I used to feel this exact way, for this exact reason, and it scared me away from brass bands for many years. Fast forward to the recent past to when I was asked by a friend to fill in for a few months in a 'competing' brass band on the bottom BBb part. I spent a week hurriedly learning to read Bb treble (having never played any of the typical Bb treble instruments) and, after just one week's labor, I couldn't believe how silly I was to be scared of Bb treble and, more importantly, how beneficial it is, now, to be able to practice sightreading out of a trumpet book, play trumpet duets with trumpeting peers, grab a bass clarinet or treble euph part in a pinch in a shorthanded concert band, confidently accept any other brass band invitations I'm lucky enough to receive, etc., etc.

There's nothing to be afraid of, trust me! It's not even hard!

[Jacob.Guilbeau]

For what it's worth-
The two most consistent USA Brass Bands of the past 6 years have homogeneous bass sections with Bb and Eb horns, as previously posted.

Here is Dr. Scott Watson, from Fountain City, explaining WHY Bb and Eb basses made such a difference, along with an audio demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOs6DCnQQd0" target="_blank

Obviously the player matters first. But all things being equal I think it's been demonstrated that a fully homogeneous Bb/Eb bass section is preferable to a mix.

[MSchott]

For what it's worth-
The two most consistent USA Brass Bands of the past 6 years have homogeneous bass sections with Bb and Eb horns, as previously posted.

Here is Dr. Scott Watson, from Fountain City, explaining WHY Bb and Eb basses made such a difference, along with an audio demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOs6DCnQQd0" target="_blank" target="_blank

Obviously the player matters first. But all things being equal I think it's been demonstrated that a fully homogeneous Bb/Eb bass section is preferable to a mix.

No matter what he says, I've heard Fountain City many times and the secret to their success is the amazing amount of talent in the band. No doubt the homogeneous sound helps when they compete against bands of similar talent but playing ability throughout their band is what makes them great. They were spectacular at NABBA this year!

[Jacob.Guilbeau]

? I think you misunderstood. That was a concrete example of why their sound changed with exactly the same players from the dude who is actually in the band. He gives specific examples. They sounded one way. They changed horns. Now they sound better. Same players.

"No matter what he says" is a bit over the top. No matter what the Brighouse bass says either? Or any of the other top bands? Or the instrument manufacturers, who don't make brass band basses in CC or F? Where's the Yamaha Neo Bass Tuba in F? Or how we call them "basses" because they are the contrabass and bass members of the homogenous saxhorn family?

I think it's fine if you want to mix different families up because that's what you have or can afford. But if want to have the best sound you can get from a "British brass band", you should strive for Bb and Eb compensating bass saxhorns, all other things being equal.

[OOMPAH]

For what it's worth-
The two most consistent USA Brass Bands of the past 6 years have homogeneous bass sections with Bb and Eb horns, as previously posted.

Here is Dr. Scott Watson, from Fountain City, explaining WHY Bb and Eb basses made such a difference, along with an audio demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOs6DCnQQd0" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Obviously the player matters first. But all things being equal I think it's been demonstrated that a fully homogeneous Bb/Eb bass section is preferable to a mix.

+1

<---- Note the homogeneous emoticon section!