Bruckner 7, no Wagner tubas

[Mark]

Perhaps all Wagner tuba parts should be re-scored in bass clef to be played on American bell-front baritone horns with 12C mouthpieces...(??)

No, French horns.

As an aside, a local community orchestra decided to get ambitious and play some Wagner and Mahler. They ask me if I would be willing to play one of the four extra tuba parts.

[bort]

unpopular as they are.

Perhaps all Wagner tuba parts should be re-scored in bass clef to be played on American bell-front baritone horns with 12C mouthpieces...(??)

By "unpopular," I mean not an instrument used by modern composers (or, virtually anyone other than Wagner).

[opus37]

Going back to the original question, "are there any suggestions for some other instrument to take the part" how about an F tuba mixed with the french horns. One of the bands I play with has a shortage of french horns and "enough" tubas. (I know, hard to believe. ) I play an F tuba on the french horn parts and it sound very nice. The tuba and french horn sound good together. I'm using a Bubbie, but I would think and most any F tuba would add a dimension to the sound. It might work.......

[swillafew]

A friend of mine is local to your area and has a double Alexander model. PM me if want a referral. Her husband gave it to her for a present; that's true love.

It also gets the bell going the right way and the hand out of the bell. That's two fixes right there.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

...if memory serves, there are eight horn parts, and four of them pick up the Wagner tuben for the slow movement (a memorial to...Wagner), and play their regular horns on the other movements.

I just played this recently, and the tuben are used for both the 2nd & 4th movements, but are tacet for 1st & 3rd.

[PaulMaybery]

First - It all makes me wonder: Why would an orchestra and its music director, in the first place, program a classic piece for which they can not cover the parts properly?

Secondly - Thanks to the Chinese and distributers such as Wessex, these peripheral instruments are becoming available at very affordable prices.

Last year I bit the bullet and purchased a cimbasso for those rare "Verdi" moments.
Plans are to also grab a bass trumpet and the BBb contra trombone. What for? I suppose I enjoy entertaining myself in the practice studio. Also 'cross-training' on a number of related instruments I find is good for my chops. That certain "strangeness" somewhat helps distance a player from those distracting quirks we encounter playing the same horn all of the time.

People spend plenty of 'dough' on golf clubs, sports cars, and home entertainment centers. Yet popping @ 900 'smackers' for a nice double Wagner tuba seems unrealistic.

I'm not sure if 'certain' horn players are inviting us to their 'pity party.' It is pretty common for a tuba player to own a large tuba such as a CC or BBb and a smaller F or Eb and even a euphonium and bass trombone. Add to that a pile of mutes and stands.

Is it time for horn players to get more serious about these peripheral instruments like the rest of the brass playing world?

I suppose I am offending 'someone.' That is not my intent.

Paul (who does on occasion tend to pontificate and presume to lecture)

[bort]

First - It all makes me wonder: Why would an orchestra and its music director, in the first place, program a classic piece for which they can not cover the parts properly?

I don't know, I think it depends on the group. I think a community orchestra would lose out on a good opportunity to play a great piece if the Wagner Tuba was a make-or-break decision for it. Do the best with what you've got... it's not like the orchestra has no trombone players and will try to "make it work" without them. I realize it's not ideal, but few things ever are!

[chronolith]

To answer the question of why did we program this piece, the answer is we wanted to play it. Part of the reason I joined this group is that there is a greater sense of democracy. The principal players and established members have direct input on our season, though the music director does have the final call in tie-break situations. I warned the director up front that the tuben would be something to consider, but we decided to proceed anyway not wanting to miss a chance at performing the piece.

That's the reason why I approached the thread asking how to pull it off without tuben. It's a community group with plenty of energy and flexibility in its attitude and that is refreshing to me, even though it doesn't pay one dime and the parking situation is horrible (and no, I won't bring a BAT to Wrigleyville on the red line, especially during the MLB season).

I did some due diligence though and asked around to various groups around the city that I know have the instruments, but in general those groups are extremely (and very understandably) protective of the tuben and will not lend them out to anyone apart from their own students or other high profile groups. No big deal. Even if we did manage to get a crate of 4 tuben for no cost my greater concern would be the ramp up time for the players, some of whom are sitting in just for the gig and are not known commodities to us.

4 more horns was my suggestion.

[marktuba]

We performed Bruckner 7 last night at the Toronto Symphony. Our Wagner tuba section played absolutely beautifully. These four excellent professional players worked their asses off together for hours to get it that way.

The WT parts in this piece are exposed and essential! If not done properly, these passages can cause misery to listeners and colleagues.

[barry grrr-ero]

I'm normally not a confrontational kind of guy, Chronolith, but if all that you say is true, then why did you bother to ask the question at all? - you seem to have answered your own question just fine. Play Bruckner 7 w/o W.T. and just enjoy yourselves. However, don't confuse doing that with thinking that you've played the work the way Bruckner wrote it and intended it to sound. In that regard, you will have fallen short.

If Bruckner had been wanting sheer perfection, he probably would not have scored those passages for W.T. in the first place. He clearly wanted a different sound to that of the horns. Bruckner had a slavish devotion to Wagner, and probably wished to recreate something of the Bayreuth sound. Perhaps even more likely, he may have wanted to apply the W.T. in a different and unique way. A slightly funky sound is precisely what Bruckner achieved, and I think a good, adventurous community orchestra should give it their best shot. Just one person's opinion.

[chronolith]

It's no problem barry.

By asking the question I managed to get a consensus from some others who put themselves into my shoes and came up with scenarios about how they would approach this. They ended up being quite a bit different than what I was originally thinking and helped to mold my understanding about the practicalities of the problem. While I knew that horn players generally carry the yolk of wagner tuben duty I did not have any experience with how difficult and different they can be, or how quickly one can ramp-up on one. I am very glad I asked as a result. When I say that I suggested horns in the end, this was based on suggestions of people wiser than me have made via email and this very forum.

I also got a sense for just how varied opinions are on the matter. This was also surprising to me. For some there is a sense that only wagner tuben and wagner tuben-qualified players will do, but as was mentioned it really boils down to the ensemble. I very much doubt that the Bruckner family will protest our performance but I will be happy to apologize to them for profaning the memory of two of the most important composers who ever put ink to paper. I am not going to equate the wagner tuba with the ophicleide but I do think there is a valid case for substituting a rare and insufficiently understood and circulated instrument with what is readily available and reliable in performance given the restrictions that we as an ensemble have. Personally I would hate to see the popularity and accessibility of a piece diminish over time due to something like instrument availability. I can virtually guaranty that quite a few people that we will play for will have never heard this piece before. I will let them decide. Again, knowing more about the variance of opinions, I am glad I asked.

Then, as a result of the post, I made contact by PM and email with a number of people who have first hand knowledge of the process of finding and acquiring the instruments. This proved to be very helpful to me when I went back to the group and told them that here is what we would have to do and pay to get a hold of these things. It allowed us to stop spinning our wheels in some cases and allowed us to focus on practical avenues for the situation. In a very real way it also potentially helped us avoid a disaster or two.

Finally I was able to reconnect with an old professor of mine at Northwestern. Even if nothing else was accomplished I am glad that I was able to do that.

Tubenet is a strange and wonderful, thing. Not unlike the tuba in my lap, it is a relatively small amount of very valuable material interspersed with a whole lot of hot air. Happiness is knowing the difference. I apologize if I raised your hackles at all.

[MikeW]

Pardon my ignorance, but I have always wondered why there is a separate and unique instrument, the Wagner tube. Would it not save a lot of hassle all round to use a horn or bariton with some kind of mute ?

[chronolith]

No, not Rex Martin. I have been pestering him on and off for a few years now, usually borrowing his grad students for Symphonie Fantastique and sub situations.

Rex has been very kind to offer them.

[bort]

I just came across this -- the beginning, and then 6:23 to the end. Good stuff!

[Roger Lewis]

I know that Indiana University in Bloomington has a full set of 4 Alexander Wagner Tuben that it will lend out. I helped ship them to the Knoxville Symphony for one of their Rite of Spring performances. It might be worth giving them a call as they are not that far from you.

Roger