Helicon Fingerings?

[TubaPresident]

First off, is a Helicon's fingerings the same as a tuba? If so, does that mean a Bb Helicon will be the same fingerings as a Bb tuba? Do I use a compensating or non-compensating fingering chart?

If none of the above is correct. Does anyone have a link to a fingering chart for a helicon?

Thanks

[David Richoux]

I don't recall ever seeing a compensating helicon. There may be some oddball ones out there, but they would be very rare.
Fingerings are same as regular tubas or Sousaphones (depending on the pitch.)

Some really old helicons were not designed to have mouthpiece bits, so if the gooseneck is awkward you may be in trouble with tuning. This is an issue on some of my really antique helicons.

[eupher61]

A helicon is a tuba. I'm pretty sure if you'd take a Cerveny helicon, straighten the bugle into tuba shape, it is the identical parts as a Cerveny tuba. The helicon was designed about 14 years after the tuba, and the sousaphone about 49 years after that. No more difference than changing from one tuba to another.

[The Big Ben]

Of course, remember that helicons were made in all the keys of a tuba so the fingerings would vary just as with a tuba. I have seen BBb, Eb and F helicons. Bloke started with a Buescher BBb sousaphone and applied hours of work to create his CC helicon. Not sure if factories made CC helicons but my knowledge certainly is not encyclopedic.

[Donn]

Well, really, there haven't been all that many helicons produced in recent decades - Cerveny and who else? So while it's fair to say that "helicon" = "tuba", it is however not too unlikely that "helicon" = "obscure old European tuba." Not only could it be in whatever key tubas have ever been made in, plus non-standard pitch, it could even have a different valve layout, e.g., third valve is major third instead of minor.

So honestly, we don't know. Can you tell us more about the helicon?

[lowpitchmoravian]

Bought Late 19th century Mahillion Eb Helicon that had weird uncommon European Eb fingering ---------Had to have tubing modified to attain common American Eb fingering.----------------------Play it often -----great little player with perfect intonation.( stove-pipe shaped bugle on it)

[PaulMaybery]

Ah hah! Could be the old "french" fingering for the 3rd valve. Normally on horns today the 3rd valve is 1 & 1/2 steps (Minor 3rd)
The "french" was 2 whole steps (major 3rd) This was not uncommon in northern Europe and up into Scandinavia as well.

Not that long ago (OK - 40 years) a Danish friend of mine in the Livgard played on an upright piston Mahillon BBb with the 'french' fingering. He mentioned that he learned that system as a youth. Also, I met a tubaist from Paris back in the late 1970s who had a custom Melton (MW) CC rotary with that set up. Also unique to that horn was a gold brass bell, 3 valves for the right hand and 4 & 5 for the left. It was a great CC, but it seemed really weird to this "Yankee."

It is a perfectly good system, just never seemed to become universal.

I've even seen antique cornets with the 1st & 2nd valve reversed. (half step on the 1st)
But that was in the very early years of the valve (1840s) and was more or less a prototype that never really caught on.

The 'Vienna' tuba also has its own unique set up with the primary valves in the left hand. More than likely though, yours is just the old "french" 3rd valve. It could be cut and 'voila' you're in business as usual.

[PaulMaybery]

Also called 'Belgian' fingering - 2 whole step 3rd valve.

[iiipopes]

And if originality is not an issue, the 3rd valve circuit can be shortened to conventional fingerings.

[Donn]

Also called 'Belgian' fingering - 2 whole step 3rd valve.

That makes sense - I mean, that the Belgians would be involved in some weird fingering.

But as far as I can make out, none of us here actually is known to have a helicon or other tuba with unusual valve tunings. The O.P. faded after asking about fingering charts, no idea why he or she even asked. The rest of us are just here circling around in case anyone should turn up with an actual question.