Best Piston F tuba on the market?

[Tubadork]

As a seller of tubas, I'm very happy with many other tuba players liking-very-much tubas that are not my personal favorites.
Otherwise, I'd be limited to successfully selling only a few tubas.

I like it because it allows me to buy notably better instruments for significantly less money.

Tubas (from 18'-long to 12'-long in length) that impress me the most (and are of the most use to me personally) are tubas that I can pick up and play well (even after *months* of allowing them to collect dust) *without* having to play a bunch of scales/arpeggios on them to *remind* myself of their various quirks. I have pared down my set of "personal" instruments to a group of instruments that meets this definition. Some other truly *wonderful* instruments have passed through my hands, but I just don't have the time to "maintain" my own memory of "the things that I must do" to play those tubas well. ...and I'm not a "collector". I like to see *each* instrument that I designate to myself as "personally owned" bring in a few checks each year, and to have been the obvious choice for those jobs for which it was selected.

That's exactly what I want. My F is close, but I'm hoping to get a little closer.

[bort]

The 45SLP would be more popular IF:

3) Basically, this horn is built to appeal to a market that doesn't quite exist BUT it's probably one of the few F tubas that can legitimately be used for everything and do an acceptable job. They can produce a lot of sound with surprising wattage.

The 45SLP was built by Warren Deck for him to use with the NYPhil. That was the original market.

^ (Possibly tuben's point...) Seems like most of the "built by Warren Deck" horns are actually "built *for* Warren Deck" horns. That is, if your name isn't Warren Deck, you may have limited success. But if your name *is* Warren Deck, then it's exactly what you want.

I once tried a 2165 at Baltimore Brass, and although it was a fun horn to play, after a minute I was sufficiently exhausted. As I sat it down, Mr. Fedderly said something like "...yet they feel it in New Jersey when Warren plays it."

[Tom]

The 45SLP would be more popular IF:
1) The low end response was more appealing to those that can't be bothered to learn how to play a German Rotor F.
2) The sound was more like that of a German Rotor F and therefore more appealing to the rotor crowd.
3) Basically, this horn is built to appeal to a market that doesn't quite exist BUT it's probably one of the few F tubas that can legitimately be used for everything and do an acceptable job. They can produce a lot of sound with surprising wattage.

Interesting comment about the low end response. I find mine to be exceptionally good and (in my opinion) not at all like the low register response of a rotary F tuba. I think this is a GOOD thing, but apparently you and others take the low register response of a piston F tuba as a bad thing? Do I have that right?

The 45-SLP sound...I feel like the SLP is about as point-and-shoot as F tubas get without being Yamahas. I get what I feel is Yamaha 822 playability with a much, much more 'colorful' sound and (for me) better intonation. I think it's an easy instrument to play although like any tuba, the more time you spend working with it, the better it gets. It doesn't require the constant attention of a high maintenance tuba to play well (and coming from someone playing a 4 valve Alexander CC, I understand what it means to have a 'high-maintenance' tuba). I can pick it up after weeks or even months (!!!) of not playing it and not be totally lost.

This was really the first successful effort to bring a piston F tuba to the market besides Yamaha. Pretty much everything else was rotary except for the PT-10P which I always thought was just so-so.

As for the market, it absolutely does exist. It was designed to be a large ensemble orchestral F tuba (just like tuben said). They can make tons and tons of noise. The 45-SLP probably is not the best choice of F tuba for someone that never will actually play the F tuba in an ensemble setting as the sound tends to be, I think, a bit 'heavier' than some other F tubas, but for orchestra, quintet, and even some wind band use I think it's still worthy of consideration. They're not the tuba-of-the-month anymore, but I don't care. No, I'm not playing mine in the NY Phil, but oh well...I like mine and it's not for sale

I actually think more people would be playing 45-SLP tubas if the ergonomics didn't suck. Deck was a pretty big guy. I'm a pretty big guy, but the ergonomics still suck on a stock 45-SLP. Anyone that really likes the SLP but doesn't think they can *play* one should consider having the leadpipe moved and having the 5th valve paddle relocated to be "in the palm" like the old 2165 rather than mounted way-up-high on the 1st slide tubing.

[joh_tuba]

It wasn't clear from my post but I would like to go an record as rather enjoying and appreciating what the SLP is all about. I've also heard many EXCELLENT performances on them.

My opinion is just that, an opinion. I personally find the low register response of the SLP to be extremely easy BUT it's not identical to the blow of a contrabass and the sort of buyer that wants a piston F *often* doesn't want to figure that out. That was my only point and I feel fairly comfortable in that assertion and don't intend it as a slight against those that *likely* find the rotor F tuba crowd snobbery to be a silly waste of time.

I also agree that the sound is not lacking in color BUT at least in most folks hands it will never produce a truly classic rotor F tuba sound. For that sort of buyer the sound is very nearly the ONLY thing that matters.

Soo.. it keeps much of the sound but not all of it.. and it has great response but not identical to a contrabass.. soo all things told it's a GREAT horn but because of the weird rotor vs piston divide amongst buyers going for one aspect over another MY opinion is it doesn't quite satisfy either type of buyer.

A sensible student on a budget would be VERY smart to snag one on the cheap.

[Donn]

That was my only point and I feel fairly comfortable in that assertion and don't intend it as a slight against those that *likely* find the rotor F tuba crowd snobbery to be a silly waste of time.

Gosh, I believe that's effectively a quadruple negative. Well done! I bet you're a deft hand with a litotes.

soo all things told it's a GREAT horn but because of the weird rotor vs piston divide amongst buyers going for one aspect over another MY opinion is it doesn't quite satisfy either type of buyer.

This seems to be more a criticism of F tuba buyers, than of the tuba itself.

[joh_tuba]

This seems to be more a criticism of F tuba buyers, than of the tuba itself.

A lot more negative commentary has been read into my comments than it was my intent to convey.

What's wrong with there being two types of buyers? I don't see it as a criticism.

I might be guilty of litotes. I've definitely not expressed myself as well as I thought I had.

[Donn]

What's wrong with there being two types of buyers? I don't see it as a criticism.

Well, you did say it's weird. I won't pretend to have a clue: is there really an important, general difference between rotor and piston valved tubas, that isn't purely about the effects on note attack/transition due to mechanism of the valves themselves? My impression up to now has been that the main notable characteristic of a few rotor F tubas is a weak low C.

[besson900]

Do u ever played on G&P F tuba because I never heard about this factory and their tubas

http://www.tubaexchange.com/used/gp-gp9" target="_blank" target="_blank

I have rotary F tuba(B&S 5100 WGL -PT15) but I played on all M&W piston tubas because in Poland B&Ss and Meltons are the most popular and we think this are the best tubas in the world.
In my opinion 2250 is the best piston tuba ever,she's great in the orchestras and very good in all solos.45SLP is to big for me(2250 isnt:)) and high register is hard to play.M&W 2182 wasnt good for me I think it has more American sound and its good for solos and bands but for the orchestras It has to small sound:/

About Miraphone i cant write opinion cause i never played on piston tuba only with rotary valves

Yamaha...Hmmm,i dont know why tuba players love them i think they are far away behind German tubas.621 are to small and they are to expensive i think in this price you can buy more usefull tuba like M&W 2250,it can be good instrument for someone who is traveling a lot(like Sergio Carolino) but if u are playing in your town and time to time going somewhere it's bad choice.822 had my teacher few years ago and this tuba is underdeveloped I think.17.5" bell is to big for solos and it's sound more like CC tuba>Yamaha have two tubas which are not usefull and they are too expensive I think It sound like Cerveny and should cost liek Cerveny
.

Last its Kanstul Grand F tuba,if not 2250 i would like to choice this one piston F tuba.Kanstuls are the best tubas from america,clear America sound opposite to german tubas amazing instrument,it's something different.I have two new BBb tubas in my orhcestra and it's amazing how easy low notes can be to play
What do u think about Kanstul cause u dont write here about them

Many players are talking that pistons are better tubas but i will stay in rotary because it's hard to play fast notes(how the hell u are playing Canival of Venic on it I had problems on rotary) and rotary can have 6th valve (yeah i know that 46SLP has 6 valves/pistons)

[NCSUSousa]

I'm no expert, but searching previous posts here (on this forum, here's the easiest example - viewtopic.php?t=26912&p=233278) have indicated that G&P tubas are built by the guys who used to build Kalison tubas (Kalison is out of business now). Unfortunately, any links to press releases that I've tried are old enough as to be inactive now.
This listing from Horn Guys - http://www.hornguys.com/collections/cim ... f-cimbasso - backs that story.

Here's G&P's website - http://www.gp-wind.com/default.asp I have no knowledge of their instruments other than to say the one on sale/display at Tuba Exchange is nice to look at in person. (I did not play-test this instrument).

Do u ever played on G&P F tuba because I never heard about this factory and their tubas http://www.tubaexchange.com/used/gp-gp9

[TheBerlinerTuba]

I play a G&P Model 9 F tuba with piston valves.

Ill put up a review soon when I have more time.

Short version: orchester let me order a new f tuba. Tried everything, liked most of them, but this one was the most interesting. 4 years later, no regrets.
http://www.gp-wind.com/

TheBerlinerTuba

[Lee Stofer]

The biggest problem that I find is the Subject Line - "Best Piston F tuba on the market" - for what"???

That is like asking which is the best tool in my shop. All of them have a purpose, and which one is "Best" is determined by what I need to accomplish at any given time. For most of this afternoon, the best tool in my shop for me will be the Ferree's buffing machine, and for Eric, the collection of tools at the bench where he is working on two Yamaha euphoniums will be the best tools in the shop.

What are the parameters? Price and Affordability? Size and weight? Construction and durability? Ease of intonation? Ease of response? Evenness of registers? Dynamic abilities (is it a loud horn, can it play the full dynanic range easily, will it bury a quintet, or get buried in an orchestra)? Quality of metals used, and quality finishing?

To me, the best F-tuba is not necessarily a piston-valve model, and certainly the best piston F-tuba is not necessarily large. In my opinion, the best piston F-tuba on the market is made by Rudolf Meinl, but due to price they are not accessible to a lot of players. The Rudi piston F is relatively lightweight, has much better intonation than the wonderful Cerveny 654-6 that I once owned, really good intonation and response throughout the entire instrument, and is the most European-sounding of the piston F-tubas. I could easily do solo or quintet work with the Rudi piston F, and would not come up short on volume in an orchestra, either. The Rudi piston F-tuba is hand-made using the finest metals. No one makes a finer instrument.

But then, that may not be the best piston F-tuba for you. The Kanstul model 80-S F-tuba in my experience is a very good instrument. Kanstul has re-vamped the bracing on this instrument, resulting in a truly mid-size F-tuba with excellent response, workable intonation and a tone color to die for. The intonation was much like my old Cerveny, not perfect but predictable, remedied by two alternate fingerings and one slide push/pull. The Kanstul has a fantastic low C, and that response continues all the way to the pedal range - those notes speak like what you'd expect with a good CC tuba. I've taken in a Meinl-Weston 45Slp, detailed it out in the shop, and took it out on a quintet gig, where I was pleasantly surprised at just how good it was. I recently serviced a couple of Yamaha 822 F-tubas, one fairly new and one old. Both were very fine players when clean, dent-free and properly prepped.

The best piston F-tuba on the market is a term that should last only for a moment, as you find the one for you, purchase it, and it then ceases to be on the market.

[Lee Stofer]

The Rudolf Meinl piston F-tuba does exist, I've played two of them, although it may need to be special-ordered. They will basically build anything you ask for, if you're willing to pay the price.

[cambrook]

I think Rudy usually has one in stock in the showroom, I played it last time I was there and yes it's great!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60198

[Lee Stofer]

Good point, Tuben!
I played Herr Nirchl's 4/4 size, 4+1 F-tuba at ITEC last year, and I came away thinking that could have been the very best-playing F-tuba there. It was very simple and straightforward, nothing fancy in appearance, but it was a simply amazing horn. I wonder how much of that could be a result of the carbon-fiber rotors?

I would also like to mention that Eric Murphy and I visited with Dave Surber at Getzen this afternoon, and played the new Willson smaller piston 5-valve F-tuba. The instrument is sturdily built, has wonderful slides and valves, and is musically top-tier, also. What a gorgeous, just-right-sized F-tuba! There are about two or three of these in the country, so play-test one if you get the opportunity.

[jonesbrass]

The "best 'piston' F tuba on the market" (as they will gladly make one, if someone would order one) is the Willson 3200RZ (ROTARY VALVES) F tuba.

When someone talks about "piston" F tubas, I suspect what they are really hoping for is (not particularly piston valves, but) a "super-easy medium-low range" (so they can spend more time practicing their contrabass tuba, and less time practicing their F tuba). The Willson ROTARY 3200RZ offers THE BEST medium low range of all F tubas (with "low C" response equal to that of a 4/4-size BBb tuba), along with (even though only 5 valves) good intonation. (Just as any only-five-valves F tuba, there is a mathematical intonation "traffic jam" around the low D area, which is not a range in which F tubas are played very often.)

The 3200RZ tubas simply are not commonly bought because dealer cost is over $11,000 (plus shipping, plus bag).

bloke "not a Willson dealer...just sayin' "

I own and play my old-style 3200FA-5 on a daily basis. As a matter of fact, I play about 95% of everything on either this or my little Cerveny F. Large F, I use it as my "go to" tuba for everything except works that require the broadest possible tuba tone. Low range on both tubas is excellent . . . as is the response throughout the rest of the range. Intonation on the 3200 is very good, better than the Cerveny, without the use of alternate fingerings. I won't part with either F tuba . . . of course YMMV.

[tclements]

I just sold FIVE F tubas. I KEPT the Yamaha 822 .....