Willson 3050RZ

[bort]

A few weeks ago, I traded my rotary Neptune for a rotary Willson 3050 (this is the same tuba that has changed hands a few times since last fall). I wanted to share a few thoughts about the tuba -- I'm thoroughly impressed by it.



I realize that everybody says "my horn is the best!," and this is no exception. This is an excellent instrument. Extremely quick response, exceptional build quality, and the sound is just awesome. I'm a big fan of the Rotax valves so far. They look huge (and they are), but they still move plenty fast enough. The original valve linkages were replaced with Miraphone minibal parts, and they are quick, smooth, and silent. It's an extremely free-blowing tuba, and I'm especially impressed with how quickly and clearly the low register and pedal notes come out. Pedal CC takes zero effort. It is in excellent condition, just one small ding on the entire horn, and a few solder marks/spots where something or another was moved -- not really sure about that, but it plays so well, it doesn't really matter to me.

Intonation is great, but the Eb rides a little high. The previous owner installed a 2nd valve slide kicker, but my verdict is still out on both the kicker itself and whether I think I need it or would want to use it. If I blow through the note, I find I need the kicker. If I feed the air (like I'm used to on rotary horns), it's not a big problem. I think the previous owner may have found it more useful than me, or maybe I just don't realize I want it yet. I may or may not remove it later on. Shedding a little extra metal and weight wouldn't be the worst thing either!

Yes, it is a heavy horn, but it's not dreadful as people make it sound. I will probably never stand and play with it, but I can't remember the last time I ever actually did that anyway. Also, I've read a lot here about people finding the valve angle uncomfortable, but so far, everything feels fine to me. The metal fingerpads on the paddles are adjustable, so they can be just where you want them. The thumb ring is HUGE and ROUND (yeah!), so it's very comfortable. The fifth valve paddle is small, and I need to adjust that to come out a little farther. Again, it's adjustable, I just can't find my allen wrenches!

There are a few negatives, all of which I can write off as "need to get to know the tuba" issues:
-- the 2nd slide kicker (as mentioned above)
-- the tuba has an AGR, and I don't really know how to best use it yet. I've never really tinkered very much with mouthpiece shanks and gaps, so this is new for me and not something I'm used to fiddling around with. I prefer to be a set it and forget it person. I'm not really sure yet what to even do as a "baseline" setting, but I have it screwed all the way IN right now.
-- the fifth valve "paddle" is small and a different shape than I'm used to

Beyond that, it's a hell of a horn, and it's a ton of fun to play. It very much plays and sounds like a rotary horn, so there's a little bit of a "do this to sound like that" learning curve. I think I'm past that now, and it's been awesome ever since.

I think the Neptune was slightly easier to play (that was an extreme point-and-shoot horn), and the Willson takes just a little bit different of an approach. The Neptune sounded broader, and the Willson sounds a little more focused, which is perfect for me. When I was still hearing the Neptune in my head, it's a little tough to make this horn "go," but when I think of a big focused rotary sound, this tuba just plain knocks it out. Awesome!

I'm looking forward to continuing to get to know this horn, and get it out and in action in some ensembles. I have bought and sold a LOT of horns over the past couple of years, but I will be holding onto this on for quite a while to come! For as many 3050 piston horns as are out there, I wonder... why aren't there more of these?

[binlove]

Congrats on the new horn! Can you post a photo or two of the second valve kicker? I'm curious to see how it is set up.

[cjk]

Didn't you mean to post this in the "for sale" section? You forgot to set a price.

[cjk]

In all seriousness, a second valve gadget is very very useful.
I wouldn't have it removed if it works well. if it didn't work well, i'd get it worked on until it did.
I would like to see a picture of the gadget if you could post one.


How much for shipping?

[bort]

Didn't you mean to post this in the "for sale" section? You forgot to set a price.

Hilarious! I deserve that.

I'll try to get a photo posted of the kicker, but it's a little hard to see. Lots of plumbing back there! Placement/style is similar to a Rudy Meinl 2nd kicker.

[bort]

Here's a closeup of the 2nd valve slide kicker.

[bort]

I've always wanted to play one of these. A dear friend when I first met him owned a very fine 3050 (piston).
It felt like a cast-iron bathtub to me. How similar/different would you say the piston and rotary instruments from each other?

You should ask Norm Epley, he has owned both.

I have little experience with the piston 3050, but know what you mean. The rotary 3050 feels a whole lot more "normal" in that regard, but it's still a Willson, so it has super thick metal and gives slightly less feedback to the player than other horns (presumably for the sake of projection.

Overall, yes, its a little different, is not at all a problem to me, and after a few hours on the horn, you just learn what to expect and go with it!

[joh_tuba]

I seem to recall that with most Hb CC tubas the D# is too low (no easy solution) and with the Willson the D# is too high. You have a solution.

This is great news if true!

ALL Willson euphs have a too long 2nd valve slide to compensate for the compensating system. The few Willson 3050(piston) CCs I've seen have had a too long 3rd slide. Great playing well built horns BUT they have a tendency to build slide lengths that assume players will never move a slide. Built for the 'set it and forget it' type player.

Bort, Could you please check the bore progression through this tuba? Is it the same bore for every valve? Larger then smaller then larger? Progressively larger?

[jonesbrass]

I seem to recall that with most Hb CC tubas the D# is too low (no easy solution) and with the Willson the D# is too high. You have a solution.

This is great news if true!

ALL Willson euphs have a too long 2nd valve slide to compensate for the compensating system. The few Willson 3050(piston) CCs I've seen have had a too long 3rd slide. Great playing well built horns BUT they have a tendency to build slide lengths that assume players will never move a slide. Built for the 'set it and forget it' type player.

Bort, Could you please check the bore progression through this tuba? Is it the same bore for every valve? Larger then smaller then larger? Progressively larger?

The piston 3050s have a progressive valve profile (0.748" in valves 1+2, 0.787" in valves 3-4, and 5th valve bore of 0.807"), but the rotary version is straight-up 0.767" bore, unless they've changed that.

[bort]

I don't have calipers, but yes, the Willson web site seems to indicate that its a straight bore. At the very least, I know its not large-small-large, which is the entire problem that the Rotax rotors are trying to minimize.

[Tom Gregory]

I like these a lot. I play a 3050 piston and have for 20yrs. The only 5/4 CC I've liked better than mine is the RZ. I actually chose the Willson over a HB2p that was really good but didn't have the gravitas in the low register. I've also owned a couple of 6/4 that were fine but difficult to articulate cleanly. I think the latter reason is why so many newer come up for sale soon after purchase. They have no practical place to be played, IMO. The Willsons I think fit the bill. I've never had anybody ask for more (like a 6/4 sound).

[Jess Haney]

I have the 3100 BBb and its a fun horn. VERY HEAVY, robust and solid. Great horn for brass band. I do have tuning issues with the first valve. Eb below the staff is very sharp and C in the staff is flat. Any ideas? I do find that G at the top of the staff and higher can be harder to focus.

[joh_tuba]

I don't have calipers, but yes, the Willson web site seems to indicate that its a straight bore. At the very least, I know its not large-small-large, which is the entire problem that the Rotax rotors are trying to minimize.

Willson instruments are well built instruments that play very nice. It saddens me that they aren't more commonly available and used.

That said, there is a history of playing a little loose with the marketing and specs:
1) The bore sized cited for Willson euphs for years was the measurement of the OUTSIDE of the slide tube. This made their horns appear a larger bore than it was in reality.
2) The Rotax rotor, when disassembled and measured carefully does NOTHING to change the disruption in bore profile relative to a tradition rotor design. In addition it adds a dramatic disruption(not part of a normal rotor) to the path every time the valve is engaged. While they *are* some of the best made rotors they don't solve any of the problems claimed. Check out the MAW valve patent if you want an analysis of the problem.
3) I've witnessed at least one piston 3050 that had a smaller bore in the middle of the valve section than on either side. There was no reason to think it was an anomaly. That is why I asked. Could a Willson owner pull your slides and test them in alternate locations?

Regarding tuning a Willson. My observation is some of their horns have 'compromise tuning' built into the tuning slide lengths.
For example:
1) A slightly long 2nd slide on the euph that averages out to better overall intonation with other valve combinations.
2) A slightly long 3rd slide on the 3050 piston CC to bring the 2+3 Eb down to pitch but leaves the Ab flat(with no recourse).

This isn't a terrible strategy if you are a set it and forget it type player. Generally speaking, in practice these horns are close enough that it's not a huge deal for most people. That said, IF I owned a horn with this problem I'd be trimming those slides shorter.

Contrary to all of the above, I'm far from a Willson expert. Please don't let anything in this post detract from the joy you get from your horn.

[bort]

Interesting!

Well, regardless of what the bore is/isn't on my tuba... it just plain works for me. The advertised bore of the Willson is *less* than the bore of a Miraphone 188, but the Willson is a more open and free-blowing tuba to me. Very interesting though, and I'll happily measure it whenever I end up buying some calipers.

[bort]

Here's a closeup of the 2nd valve slide kicker.

Quick update:

Last week, I finally got around to removing the 2nd valve kicker -- just a couple of screws, so I can put it back if I want to later. Things I noticed:
-- Intonation is still very good (and very manageable) without it. I'm not much of a slide puller to begin with.
-- Might be my imagination, but the horn feels a little lighter without it. It is a substantial metal rod... not "heavy", but certainly noticeable. For a heavy tuba, any opportunity to shed a few ounces is a good thing.
-- Again, might be my imagination, but the horn just seems "happier" (a little more responsive?) without it.

I recently got a Tilz WH-B2, and spent a few hours with it on this tuba. It's an ***-kicking combination, what a great horn. Definitely a better horn than I am a player, but I'll do my best to catch up.

[bort]

Oh, one other thing. Although it's a minor problem, I just can't get comfortable with the 5th valve actuator. It's a very small paddle, and even at it's farthest out adjustment, it doesn't seem in the right position for my thumb.

I'm not sure if it's because of where the thumb ring is (and you HAVE to use the thumb ring to use the 5th valve -- MW-style), or because it's just not long enough, but it's slightly uncomfortable. I actually think a LH 5th valve would be a lot more comfortable. Maybe one day...?

[joh_tuba]

That's clearly not the original factory linkage. It's likely that whoever did the conversion didn't quite get the geometry right.

I would call up Willson and see if they can ship you a new factory linkage as a drop in replacement for what you've got.

Alternatively, let a repairman that is familiar with linkage conversions have a go at making it work better for you.

[bort]

That's clearly not the original factory linkage. It's likely that whoever did the conversion didn't quite get the geometry right.

I would call up Willson and see if they can ship you a new factory linkage as a drop in replacement for what you've got.

Alternatively, let a repairman that is familiar with linkage conversions have a go at making it work better for you.

Thanks... the problem is only with the part where the thumb presses the lever... the "paddle." The linkage isn't a problem at all. Actually, the previous owner (a well-regarded repairman) changed the linkages for 1--4 to Miraphone parts, and left #5 alone. Maybe a different previous owner did something else?

That's the one tricky thing here, there are so few of these it's almost impossible to tell what the stock parts looked like. I've seen what original 1--4 linkages looked like, and they are chunky and finicky to adjust, which is why they were swapped for Miraphone parts. I'm sure those have their own disadvantages, but they work great right now, and will be easy to repair if needed later on.

Here's another shot of it, from a previous owner's for sale pictures (it's upside down, but you can see the little part where your thumb pushes the lever. It has a small hex head screw to adjust it, and it's as far out as it goes. It feels like ideally, it should be a little longer. My thumb misses the mark every once in a while. I really like the Miraphone "bar" 5th valve, but there's clearly not enough room for that here.

[bort]

One other crazy thought, maybe this was originally (long ago) a LH 5th valve, and it was converted to RH? The wear spot on the silver on the outer bow is (or is almost) in the right spot for it.

You're right though, I'm sure that (for a price), I can get the parts from Willson to do whatever I want...

[bort]

If I'm remembering correctly, you probably could really use that #2 slide device for (quite sharp, as I recall) D# just below the staff, as well as the no-great-solution-without-it two-ledger-lines B natural (2-4).

Again, it's two screws to install/remove it, so an extremely minor effort to reinstall if I decide I need it.

Besides, it was really the Eb that benefitted from it. The D# is fine. (Yuk yuk). Also, B natural is just 2. I think you meant C#, which works just fine as 235.

As with anything, the game is change it, try it, then decide. I'm still in "try it" mode.