Heavier Than Normal Calcium Deposits In Horns

[Dan Schultz]

Every once in a while I come across a horn that has waaaay heavier than what I consider to be normal calcium deposits inside the valves and tuning slides. ... sometimes as thick as 1/16"! The heaviest deposits are usually in the areas where the rotors/pistons meet the tuning circuits.

We all know that these deposits are more-or-less the same as one might find in a coffee pot, tea kettle, or kitchen sink drain and are basically just 'hard water' deposits. They are mostly formed when the H20 evaporates and leaves behind stray chemicals.

These deposits are a fact of life in brass instruments and are the primary cause of 'red rot' where the zinc in the brass is leached out leaving behind porous copper.

Question.... what conditions make these deposits 'over the top' in some horns? The logical answer seems to be body chemistry and diet. But the REAL question I'm asking is for an MD or chemist to define what we need to do to protect our horns a bit better.

[Three Valves]

Two words;

Skim milk.

[sliphorn]

Tinker,

We need context. Exactly how heavy is Norman?

Yuk yuk yuk.

But seriously...maybe some people decalcify orally through saliva or whatever. Kind of like how some people shed lots of acid through sweat, etc.

[sliphorn]

Sorry if I derailed this topic. Bump.

[Dan Schultz]

I just checked. My deposits look to be heavier than Norman, but lighter than Calvin.

DG

I re-read my original post and didn't spot the typo in the subject line until just now. I think I fixed it!

[Art Hovey]

I think it's the saliva. The problem seems to be worst with the first valve on tubas with short leadpipes. Tubas that have a tuning slide in the leadpipe seem to suffer less from buildup of white deposits in the valves, perhaps because the water key drains off the contaminated water before it reaches the valves.

I tried using lots of oil, but found that it leads to lots of gray goo. Someone here suggested that it's an emulsion formed from mixing the oil and water. Now I use as little oil as possible, and pour some clean water through the valve section frequently. So far so good.

[MikeW]

The body does everything it can to conserve Calcium, so there is not likely to be musch of it in saliva.

Are you sure that the white deposits cause red rot ? the other way around is more likely, with the zinc leached out of the brass turning up as white deposits of Zinc oxide. What we need is a chemist to analyse the white gunk and tell us what it really.

A flame test should do it, Calcium gives a Brick red flame, and zinc gives a colorless or pale blue-green flame.
The colors are best observed by heating the sample on a loop of platinum wire moistened with HCl (hydrochloric acid)
You'll probably get some yellow as well, from sodium - salt turns up everywhere you don't want it.
EDIT: this turns out to be an optimistic and overly simplistic view. The flame test is insufficient.

[Donn]

Players have been known to pour milk into their tubas. I read this here, so it must be true. That could account for some calcium, among other things.

[smitwill1]

Coincidentally, I recently cleaned my tuba about the same time as I went to the dentist for a checkup and cleaning. Apparently--so said the dentist--some people tend to accumulate a great deal more calculus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_(dental" target="_blank)) than others. I'm curious if folks with above average tuba schmutz suffer from above average tartar deposits. Seems like the same source of parent materials: oral bacteria plus saliva plus time to build up...

[Ben]

I doubt the calcium is coming from the player's saliva. But I would suspect that the player's saliva and or diet would have an effect. Without analyzing the sample (and I think a flame test would give false information, as trace elements will be present for both zinc, sodium, calcium and copper & many more- IF you NEED to know: you would need a full blown quantitative atom absorption analysis... seek your local municipal water source, they will have one)...

Ask the individual owners of the instruments and see if they drink/eat (coke, beer, foods...) or brush teeth before playing... Do they make any effort to clean their instrument?

I've never seen a calcium deposit/lime deposit that is terribly thick in a horn, but I do get a bit of gunk build up in mine if I don't run a snake through it. But I only deal with my instruments...

[MikeW]

Players have been known to pour milk into their tubas. I read this here, so it must be true. That could account for some calcium, among other things.

Back in the seventies, when I first started learning to play, I was told about the milk thing happening "way back in the bad old days", which probably puts it at the start of the twentieth century. Would anyone still do that today ?