Juilliard article - NYT

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binlove
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

Post by binlove »

bort wrote:People are too afraid of failure these days. They see failure as an endpoint, and not as a starting point for whatever is next. Yes, there's a point where you can just be an idiot about it, but I think it takes longer to get to that point than many of us want to admit.
That's said very nicely.

Where you go to school and what degree you earn is the beginning of what you learn and who you become, not the sum total. In my current job, I interview plenty of people with liberal arts or STEM degrees that I would consider essentially unemployable. Of course one can go to Juilliard and acquire skills that will make you tremendously employable and successful outside of music. Maybe my degrees from Juilliard would have helped me be a professional tuba player or maybe not, but they certainly haven't ever hurt my ability to get other jobs.

Today I manage an engineering team at a very successful technology company. Juilliard and playing/teaching professionally have come up positively in every single job interview and numerous formal and informal networking contexts. My experience at Juilliard has been an enormous part of my non-musical professional success. Most importantly, the lessons of character I learned from David Fedderly and Warren Deck and by driving myself hard enough to get in (and later get out) are the easily most important thing that has helped my career. Maybe I could have learned those things somewhere else…but I didn't.

If someday my kid gets in to a top music school, the conversation about whether to go will have NOTHING to do with whether they'll be viable outside of the music world.
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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PMeuph wrote:

My anecdotes aren't data, but then again, most data is probably as biased as no one wants to admit their failure.
I can confirm that you are unequivocally correct on the first point. On the second point, one could easily look at how any given study is put together and determine what bias exists.

You've also got to remember, there aren't enough conservatories in the US to cause the type of surplus we are imagining. Most people getting music degrees are getting a BA not a BFA or certificate. I got a BFA and even then, half my course load was unrelated to music

A BA in music is as good to a large corporation as a BA in communications, really. My friends who are doing their pure math doctorates seem to think business is much more of a bogus degree than music
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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Always get a 2nd major in Business or Math..
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

Post by Three Valves »

tubanonymous wrote: My friends who are doing their pure math doctorates seem to think business is much more of a bogus degree than music
Probably because their bosses are MBA's and everyone hates the boss!!
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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Three Valves wrote:
tubanonymous wrote: My friends who are doing their pure math doctorates seem to think business is much more of a bogus degree than music
Probably because their bosses are MBA's and everyone hates the boss!!
Huh? No, their bosses usually didn't go to college at all. Also, I would be surprised if a plurality, let alone a majority, of those working on wall street or in similar fields have business degrees.

Sure, go for STEM. But business? Its much more a made up degree than music anyways.

The "business man" is going to be a thing of the past, since computers are much better at calculating risk than a human. Now if you had said to go to school for programming or computer science rather than "business," I'd be more inclined to agree.
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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lowpitchmoravian wrote:Always get a 2nd major in Business or Math..
That's funny, because as a math major, my advice to current math majors would be to get a 2nd major in something else. When I graduated, I think there were 4 of us who were math majors, about 100 people who were math and computer science double majors. A degree in math is great and all, but it doesn't exactly open many doors when you're looking for a job. All of that pure math theoritical hoo-hah was fun at the time, but looking back, was kind of a waste. Glad I did it, but glad I left it behind.

Better yet, go to Juilliard for the dermatology program. :lol:

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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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tubanonymous wrote:
Three Valves wrote:
tubanonymous wrote: My friends who are doing their pure math doctorates seem to think business is much more of a bogus degree than music
Probably because their bosses are MBA's and everyone hates the boss!!
Huh? No, their bosses usually didn't go to college at all. Also, I would be surprised if a plurality, let alone a majority, of those working on wall street or in similar fields have business degrees.
What kinds of jobs are these math PhD's-to-be working that involves a boss with NO college at all? Sounds like they're at the wrong place, to me.

MBA's were once seen as an entry ticket, and to some extent they are still are (depends on the school, an online MBA and a Harvard MBA are viewed differently). Either way, it's a valuable asset and you're better with it than without it...IF that's the kind of work you want to do. "Business degree" means a LOT of different things, and there's a TON of boring-*** business stuff that always needs to be done, and takes some training to accomplish.
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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bort wrote:
What kinds of jobs are these math PhD's-to-be working that involves a boss with NO college at all? Sounds like they're at the wrong place, to me.

MBA's were once seen as an entry ticket, and to some extent they are still are (depends on the school, an online MBA and a Harvard MBA are viewed differently). Either way, it's a valuable asset and you're better with it than without it...IF that's the kind of work you want to do. "Business degree" means a LOT of different things, and there's a TON of boring-*** business stuff that always needs to be done, and takes some training to accomplish.
They are doing data/accounting/running machines in small/medium factories. You know, you are talking about a lot of math to run a CNC lathe. You can easily waste $30,000 in 10 seconds if you make an adjustment to a machine thats a mere 2 or 3 microns off the mark. Many CNC machines, and other high tech manufacturing stuff, requires you to be able to do calculus on the fly in your head. Either that, or they are working in the offices.

Quality Assurance doesnt require a full college degree, just some technical certification. Neither does being an auditor. Ive never met a production manager in my life who had a college degree, personally. The "boss" typically means the president. Ive worked for 4 different manufacturing companies now, none of the presidents had college degrees. To own a company, all you need is access to capital. Not having student loans actually makes venture capital easier to get.

The economy is a lot different than it used to be
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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Woman Selling Diploma on Ebay for $50000 to Pay Her Loans

According to the listing which was posted by user aaronsamuels (as in “Mean Girls”), Ritter graduated from Florida State University in 2011 with a bachelor of arts in theater which, according to the listing, has “never been used to get a job before!” “I graduated from Florida State University in 2011 and have yet to use my diploma, so save yourself the time and buy college experience”, the listing reads, satirically poking fun at the idea of earning a degree that clearly won’t pay off. After graduating with a theater degree, Ritter took a job as an assistant as there really wasn’t much out there for her to do.

However, Stephanie is offering potential buyers a more abridged version of that college experience. Included in the sell is a tour of FSU campus, access to Ritter’s college memories and Facebook albums for six months, and “A TOUR OF ALL MY FAVORITE PUBLIXES INCLUDING SWEET TEA AT EACH LOCATION!!” A study by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York states that only 27% of college graduates have jobs that are closely related to their major.

Though Stephanie seems to recognize the unlikelihood that someone will actually purchase her very expensive piece of paper, she hasn’t given up all hope of achieving financial stability, and told BuzzFeed that she dreams that ‘a very rich family would adult Daddy Warbucks me’. And if that bullet-proof plan doesn’t pan out, she’s planning on waiting 25 years until the government takes pity on her and wipes away the debt.

http://rapidnewsnetwork.com/woman-selli ... ns/146004/" target="_blank

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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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That whole "wait 25 years thing" isn't a full proof plan either. At that point, they can decide that you now have a bunch more "income" since you aren't paying that loan anymore, so they can tax you more.

College graduates: the indentured servants of the 21st century.
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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When I was doing the audition circuit, playing anywhere, anytime, I started going to a therapist. Once she asked me why I kept trying, saying "I play a little cello, but I don't need to play it to make a living! Why don't you just do something else?"

At the time it seemed that the therapist had no understanding of how important playing the tuba was. She seemed unaware that without the tuba our planet would cease to orbit the sun, which of course would negate the reason for making money anyway. The question seemed so absurd that decades later I still don't know how to answer it, which is probably why I'm still playing. I wonder what that therapist is doing now?

I empathize with students who are working so hard to develop the artistry it takes to keep the tuba at the forefront of their lives. For the overwhelming majority who won't ever do it for the dollars, please don't lose sight of the importance of the aesthetic sense of what you have.
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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As a *non-music major* college student pursuing Religion, German, and Philosophy, I can relate to the article and massive debt that *can* accumulate: however, I am getting paid to be in college after all is said and done and worked out between various scholarships. My university is probably not known outside of the midwest, but will it really make that much of a difference later on if someone went to Julliard or CCM or the University of Minnesota for any particular degree? Obviously one should choose a school that is affordable and has proven success, but how much of an impact does the name actually make?
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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Dubby wrote:As a *non-music major* college student pursuing Religion, German, and Philosophy, I can relate to the article and massive debt that *can* accumulate: however, I am getting paid to be in college after all is said and done and worked out between various scholarships. My university is probably not known outside of the midwest, but will it really make that much of a difference later on if someone went to Julliard or CCM or the University of Minnesota for any particular degree? Obviously one should choose a school that is affordable and has proven success, but how much of an impact does the name actually make?
In my opinion, the answer is "maybe", and only in the event that it is a graduate degree and the person earning it wants to teach college. When you are trying to crack into academia, having a recommendation from someone who is known and respected in the field can make a difference. If person B and person A are equals on paper, but person B studied with Mister Perfect who is a "celebrity," person B might at least get a chance to have a phone interview, while person A goes in the trash.

A small difference yes, but it's a BRUTAL world out there and anything that can help you stand out helps. Person A might be a great candidate, but the committee just doesn't have time to consider him/her. A lot of times, though not always, these big time folk are at the so called "best" and most expensive schools. Is it worth the debt to get this small advantage over your peers? Probably not, but that's up to the individual to decide.
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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anonymous4 wrote: A lot of times, though not always, these big time folk are at the so called "best" and most expensive schools. Is it worth the debt to get this small advantage over your peers? Probably not, but that's up to the individual to decide.
If only it were that simple.

More and more of the worthless freight is being paid for by the collective.

So that makes it everyone's business.
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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Dubby wrote:As a *non-music major* college student pursuing Religion, German, and Philosophy, I can relate to the article and massive debt that *can* accumulate: however, I am getting paid to be in college after all is said and done and worked out between various scholarships. My university is probably not known outside of the midwest, but will it really make that much of a difference later on if someone went to Julliard or CCM or the University of Minnesota for any particular degree? Obviously one should choose a school that is affordable and has proven success, but how much of an impact does the name actually make?
As a non-music graduate student at the University of Minnesota :P ... one of my professors told us point blank to NOT spend any more time or effort on his class than is absolutely necessary to get a B. Don't waste our time trying to get an A-, let alone waste time trying to turn an A- into an A. His advice: "B's get degrees."

I think that kind of oversimplifies things, but at least in my field, it's true. People just want to see letters after your name, they don't really care where you went.
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

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bloke wrote:

bloke "My favorite scheme for funding 'higher' education, though, is the tax-the-poor scheme...whereby the lowest income folk are systematically addicted to gambling, and their SSI money is funneled into state lotteries at convenience stores. :tuba: "
It makes some of us feel good that the "little guy" is being looked out for and taken care of. 8)
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

Post by milissam »

For me, I just really couldn't see myself doing anything else for the rest of my life. The tuba pretty much defines my life. I realize the job opportunities are going to be slim, but I feel like that's something that comes along with it. Being a student can be a bit unnerving at times when speaking about jobs, especially reading articles like this.
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Re: Juilliard article - NYT

Post by b.williams »

I earned my living playing for about five years. Earning a living playing music is a grind like any other job. It isn't about what you want to play, but what the audience wants to hear. I am much happier now that I earn my living doing something else and play what I want, when I want and where I want. Playing the tuba is so important to me that I want to do it on my terms.
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