Where are Chinese tubas built?

[bort]

I *do* believe that not all Chinese tubas are made by JinBao. But... when that's the only company name we know, saying "it's not JinBao" means very little. People aren't asking what it's NOT, they're asking what it IS.

Frankly, it reminds me of this (oh, and Duff Dry is where all the GOOD beer goes).

[Dan Schultz]

I've visited both plants #1 and #2 (is 2 still open at all?)....

I only visited the Bach factory at 500 Industrial Parkway. There are several other Conn-Selmer buildings scattered along Industrial Parkway... including the corporate offices where I had the pleasure of meeting Markus Theinert. As many of you know, Mr. Theinert was formerly with Miraphone and sometimes posts on this forum.

There is surely still some woodwind production going on in Elkhart because I DID see some nickel-silver scrap left from the stamping of baseplates for flute key posts.

[bisontuba]

I wish Bach would go back to the two-piece valve casings on the trumpets....

Joe... the production I witnessed Friday morning were two-piece valve casings... some had nickle-silver tops and bottoms. I don't think they were destined for anything special beyond the new Artisan series Bach trumpets.

The factory I saw was VERY clean and set up in work cells A La 'lean manufacturing'. There were A LOT of smiling faces! I think Conn-Selmer has their 'stuff' together with what appears to be happy employees, a good parts program, and fresh marketing strategies.

I was frankly surprised that I didn't see ANY imported parts. Even small items like brace flanges were still being stamped from sheet stock and brazed into assemblies.

I don't know what these factories looked like fifty years ago but it's fairly obvious to me that some really good things are taking place in American manufacturing these days. They even have programs in place to recycle their materials to assure that the same alloys are brought back into the system as raw material.

Their new trombone valve that resembles a Thayer on the outside is radically different on the inside... with replaceable bearing surfaces.

Things are lookin' good in Elkhart!

That is great news!!

[AHynds]

I wish Bach would go back to the two-piece valve casings on the trumpets....

I don't know what these factories looked like fifty years ago but it's fairly obvious to me that some really good things are taking place in American manufacturing these days. They even have programs in place to recycle their materials to assure that the same alloys are brought back into the system as raw material.

Their new trombone valve that resembles a Thayer on the outside is radically different on the inside... with replaceable bearing surfaces.

Things are lookin' good in Elkhart!

I'm not entirely up to speed on this topic, but I'm curious to know--what would it take for a company like Conn-Selmer to get into (or, in Conn's case, get back to) making tubas of a high quality in house here in the U.S.? I know that a big part of it is simply the change in market demands going towards German made instruments over the last few decades, along with the ever growing cost of raw materials. That being said, I know I'm not alone in thinking that it would be great to see a resurgence in American tuba making (not from a xenophobic quest to eliminate all traces of foreign influence on the instruments that we play, but rather from a desire to see the extension of a storied production tradition in this country--I mean, heck, I'm planning on never getting rid of my thoroughly German PT-6, and indeed much of my playing style is based on a fairly German sensibility).

Maybe with Theinert on board, it could be that Conn is looking to get back into the tuba game--I'd certainly be interested to see where they might go with what seems to be a thriving and very healthy workforce. If nothing else, maybe they can bring back the old American Eb tuba tradition! It's my not-so-secret desire to see a great new Conn Eb tuba, or a newer version of the great old 2J line. I'd also be happy to see a recreation of Harvey's old tuba, with some modern tweaks--I may never part with my PT-6, but I'd love a small little piston CC!

[MackBrass]

All my horns are engineered and hand made by my own factory in Germany, or maybe France, by the largest manufacturer in the world, JinBao. Its all on the front page of my website so it must be true. ggg

I just dont know why some hide it, it is what it is.

[proam]

...There were A LOT of smiling faces! I think Conn-Selmer has their 'stuff' together with what appears to be happy employees...

That is good to hear, but they went through a pretty nasty strike a while back (2006 or so?) in order to get to where they are today.

[Rick Denney]

Curmudgeon, I am not "cas[t]ing aspersions" at anyone or any company. To clarify, I was just agreeing with Bloke that they are different horns. I wish you would not try to read hidden messages that were never intended.

My posts to this thread were just trying to demystify the Chinese brass industry to clear up misconceptions. Not all Chinese made brass are the same and not all are made by Jinbao. I will say no more...

No need to get upset. I'm reading nothing into your posts. Perpetuating mysteries that "even the biggest companies sub-contract" doesn't help you. Trying to make people doubt what they have purchased from other companies doesn't help you. Improving the products you resell and proving how they are better than the other Chinese reseller's instruments is the best and only way. Buyers will trust you all the more.

So, you are, in fact, arguing for precisely the lack of transparency the OP complained about. I once asked a well-known importer of Chinese-made instruments which factory he used, and he declined to tell me because he didn't want it splattered across the Internet. But what Jonathon said is a fact. He said that even the biggest companies use sub-contractors, verified by his first-hand observation, and I take that as fact. If that is disparagement, then Jonathon is disparaging his own product, and Chinese production in general. Clearly that is neither his motive nor his intent. But that is a production model Europeans have used since the beginning, and contractors are expected (and in most cases contractually obligated) to keep their role confidential.

On the larger issue, there is a reason companies are not clear about the factory. And that is: They don't want people making judgments on the instruments based on what factory made them. Several of the Chinese factories can make excellent instruments, as has by now been demonstrated conclusively. And all these same companies can make low-quality instruments at the lowest price points.

Who gets to put their brand name on the object? This is a big issue, because people expect that things are made by elves, and the elves are all part of one family whose surname is the brand name. This is a foolish belief, but even people who know better have that deep-seated expectation. We already knew that for European instruments the valve mech, bells, and some of the other parts were made by one or two companies and used by nearly everyone, even in Germany, Switzerland, and the Czech Republic. This is a common production model in that part of Europe that depends on small contractors to supply parts and materials for large manufacturers, and that model has been in place for centuries. It's the same in other industries that involve fine manufacture, including cameras and watches, by the way. (In the watch industry, which is mostly based in the French-speaking part of Switzerland, it's call etablissage.)

So, who gets to put their brand name on the object? The company that designs, markets, and services the market for the item. If I come up with a design for an instrument, I'll have to shop around for a manufacturer, because even though I might be able to design a superior instrument, I can't make one. Who will I pick? Does it matter, as long as they are competent to carry out my intentions fully?

I've seen many instruments with stencil labels that were "made in Europe". A couple of decades ago and more, that meant East Germany or Czechoslovakia, which were both communist countries. When I bought my first good tuba, a Sanders, and discovered that it was made in Czechoslovakia (which was written on the receiver), I was not disappointed. But my father, of an older school, just shook his head for a moment when I mentioned it to him. The larger motive was political. My father shook his head because he was opposed to Communism (as am I). Then, however, he realized that doing business with them is what would lead to their people demanding a better life, and that is exactly what happened in East Germany and Czechoslovakia, and what is, I believe, now happening in China. A taste of freedom creates a hunger for it, just as an abundance of it (apparently) creates boredom with it and an expectation that it will always be there.

I don't recall ever seeing those ads for Sanders tubas including the clear statement that they were made by VEB Amati/Denak, of which Cerveny was and is a part. (VEB means: The People's Company). But everyone knew. But it isn't just Communism, sometimes it's plain-old American nationalism. How long did we see ads for "Meinl-Weston, a Division of Getzen"? Really? That clearly makes it sound like Getzen owned Meinl-Weston, when Meinl-Weston was really just the U.S. marketing name (stencil, if you will) of a German manufacturer (Wenzel-Meinl GmbH, at the time) whose products were marked "Melton" everywhere else.

Now, tubas made in what used to be East Germany and Czechoslovakia are as expensive as tubas made in what used to be West Germany, because, after unification and the escape from the Soviet sphere of influence, both countries have slowly adopted western market-based costs, which means that their workers and technicians are getting paid the same as their formerly western counterparts. And the prices have equalized because they have demonstrated the quality and brand value that makes customers willing to pay those prices. When Yamaha instruments came out (and where are they made?--Japan isn't that small), they were price-point instruments. It took them a long time for them to build the brand value needed to support typical western pricing, but they got there. And now, their workers are paid similarly to German workers. If your labor costs are high, you have to work the high end of the market to have prices that will cover those costs, but it means superior quality. This is the mistake the American companies made in their race to the bottom. They couldn't abandon their hunger for high production quantities, even though they set the standard for doing so at a high quality level.

Rick "is Waldkraiburg a better or worse place to build tubas than Geretstried or Markneukirchen?" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I'm not entirely up to speed on this topic, but I'm curious to know--what would it take for a company like Conn-Selmer to get into (or, in Conn's case, get back to) making tubas of a high quality in house here in the U.S.?

1. Tuba buyers at the top of the market buying solid quality consistently instead of jumping on the latest bandwagon.

2. Tuba buyers willing to pay well into the five figures for American-made tubas.

Rick "the market's willingness to buy is what establishes the quality model and the business viability" Denney

[Three Valves]

It isn't just tubas...

Try finding out where Ralph Lauren has his shoes made!!

[Michael Bush]

bloke "I have tested some Chinese products for radioactivity...so far: nil"

Did you wear you tin foil hat and shorts while doing those tests?

Once someone made a claim about radioactivity in Chinese tubas. As obviously improbable as it was, it started gaining traction. I didn't know bloke tested some, but I do know that when stupid claims start amassing followers it's always good to have actual information.

[Three Valves]

bloke "I have tested some Chinese products for radioactivity...so far: nil"

Did you wear you tin foil hat and shorts while doing those tests?

Once someone made a claim about radioactivity in Chinese tubas. As obviously improbable as it was, it started gaining traction. I didn't know bloke tested some, but I do know that when stupid claims start amassing followers it's always good to have actual information.

Investigating the veracity of allegations??

You mean like the media used to do??

[Arthur]

I don't eat tubas, and I don't drink antifreeze out of (nor pour it into) tubas.

I sure as heck have, must be nice to be in the South. I generally would use ethanol to keep the sousaphone valves from freezing in those late November night games when it would be about 10 degrees or so. Tough to just shove a sousie into your uniform jacket like our trumpet playing colleagues could get away with. I am with you on not eating them though, tough on the teeth.

[Three Valves]

I've got to get me a Bass...

But who needs five strings??

[Three Valves]

Pish Posh!!

Archie Bell & The Drells needed no such abomination.

If it's good enough for the Tighten Up, that's good enough for me!!

[MSchott]

I wonder why transparency is an issue when buyers of these horns are looking to economize in the first place. If you want transparency, buy a high end name brand. If you want to save money, you have to live with some compromises. I am not against Chinese made horns but Chinese manufacturing has had a cloak of secrecy for a very long time. The bottom line is the integrity of the product itself and if these horns are satisfactory, that should be good enough IMO.

[bigtubby]

I've got to get me a Bass...

But who needs five strings??

Don't know if he _needs_ six strings but lay even a vague approximation of this on me with your J-Bass and I will be sorely impressed.

[butch]

Sidebar -- what is the reason for "Made in EC" (European Community). I've seen that on stuff made in Lithuania.

I don't see the point. It says made in EU, Lithuania is part of the EU.

[thevillagetuba]

Sidebar -- what is the reason for "Made in EC" (European Community). I've seen that on stuff made in Lithuania.

I don't see the point. It says made in EU, Lithuania is part of the EU.

He is referring to the ambiguity of the place of production. The EU does not mean Lithuania and could refer to France, Germany, or anywhere else in that "community" just as China can refer to a lot of city's and production plants.

[bigtubby]

...but I don't want to talk about Chinese factories OR who-cares-about-messed-up-frets-or-too-many-strings-basses.

I want to talk about motorcycles...

[tubasaz]

I would like that on my tuba there would be somewhere clearly fully manually engraved something like "Bejging Manufacturing Plant, Made in China" . Also if there "must be" a dealers logo I would like that that that again been again fully manually engraved instead of that (little irritating) laser "engave". But all that would demand more work.... (prices...).