How many Auditions did you take?

[Jay Bertolet]

As someone who has been on the audition trail (a few years ago), I'll tell you what I know:

Auditioning is like any skill. You practice it and you get better at it. How long did it take you to learn how to do any aspect of your playing? Plan on that auditioning skill being just one more type of skill you need to win a job.

I really liked Alan Baer's approach to auditioning. He was on the "trail" at the tail end of my time there so we didn't overlap much. That said, I was impressed watching how he progressed. I was particularly impressed by the fact that he took auditions that (it seemed to me) he never intended on accepting the job (if he won). To me, that might be the best way to prepare your audition skills and to keep them sharp.

It has been suggested that being known to the committee can make or break your chances. I can confirm that this is not necessarily true. The biggest audition I ever won was for a job that had no idea I existed (other than a 1 page resume submitted with my application). Nobody on the committee knew me or anyone I knew prior to winning the job. After 18 years on the job, none of them ever spoke about it to me afterwards. I think notoriety can be a 2-edged sword. Look at all the players that worked a season or two prior to an audition for an orchestra and ultimately didn't win the permanent job. I think the best advice is to ignore that aspect of the process and simply go to the audition and play your tail off. Let the horn do the talking.

Winning an orchestral job can be a great thing, if you really want that kind of life. To me, it meant that I had zero control over where I would live. I took auditions until I won one and I moved there. I feel like freelancing is a really great way to keep your musical life rich and your playing skills improving. Not all jobs give you the flexibility to do that but you can always decide how to choose the job that fits you best. The job can be tedious at times but it can also be unbelievably challenging and exhilarating. Only you can answer for yourself if the job is worth all that plus your efforts to get there. Choose wisely!

[Jay Bertolet]

In addition to the above:

Typical, I didn't even answer the primary question! In my case, I'm not exactly sure how many auditions I took but I'm pretty sure it was over 15. Never post on Tube-Net while drinking!

[Unatuba]

This is great! Keep them coming.

[Three Valves]

...that you are a stable-enough person to have passed tenure and to not have been dismissed (tardiness, substance abuse, "difficulty-working-with", playing deficiencies, etc.) beyond the probationary period.

I've always relied on showing up to work every day, on time, sober, and getting along with co-workers throughout my career. (Not music)

What I do once I get here isn't tough, but I'm always amazed at how many just can't get past the basics.

(Including myself when I was 20 )

[happyroman]

I took quite a few auditions between 1979 and 1988, and made the finals only once, the first audition I took (Jacksonville in 1979). I later went to Columbus, Pittsburgh, Grant Park, St. Louis, USAF Band (Washington DC), USAF Ceremonial Band (which eventually led to being appointed to one of the Field Bands), and finished with the second CSO audition. At the time of the CSO audition, I was in the AF, but had the opportunity to get out a year early. After being informed that the "permanent" bands in DC and at the AF Academy did not anticipate any openings for at least 10 years, I decided to leave the service, rather than being faced with the decision to either be transferred to a band where I would have to move (especially if they may have asked me to go overseas), or leave the service on their terms.

I played OK at the CSO audition, but it was nowhere near the level necessary to advance. As I was packing up my stuff in the warm up room, I experienced one of the most incredible tuba sounds I have ever heard. It was coming from a player sitting a few feet away from me, and turned out to be Tony Kniffen. I believe he was only 18 at the time and was the only player to advance that day. As we all know, he was given serious consideration for the position.

With the knowledge that a new generation of players, including the likes of Mr. Kniffen, would now be added to the competition for the two or three jobs that would become available per year, I knew that my time was up and made the decision to end my music career, go back to school, and get a degree in another field where I could actually earn a decent living.

I was auditioning at a time where there were, on a relative basis, quite a few orchestra openings over a period of several years. Most of the "major" orchestras held auditions for their tuba chair, which led to a trickle down effect of smaller orchestras needing to fill positions as players moved up in the world. It seems to me that the near future for aspiring orchestral tubists is rather bleak. The majority of the major positions are filled with "young" players who should be able to continue in their jobs for years, if not decades. I do not envy the current batch of aspiring players.

My best advice is to do what Warren Deck told us when he gave a clinic at Indiana University. He said that the people who have the best chance to advance in auditions are those who do the best job of confronting what they can't do well, and fixing it. He said that at an audition, when you look at an excerpt on the audition list, be aware that someone at the audition is going to nail it, so that's how well you have to play all of the excerpts. Record all of the excerpts multiple times and then tear apart the best take until they are all perfect. He also said to make sure you look at the list as a whole, and use each piece as an opportunity to show off some particular aspect of your playing.

But above all, you must convey the fact that you are a musician who happens to play tuba. Use the brief opportunity you are on stage to make the music come to life. Sterile, technically proficient playing, without musicality, will get you dismissed pretty quickly.

Warren specifically told us not to worry about missing notes during the audition. He said there is no such thing as a note perfect audition and that missing notes never kept him from advancing in or winning any of his three auditions in Baltimore (one of three finalists), Houston (won), and New York (won).

[Rick Denney]

Probably, the auditions where the choosing of an applicant is - most often - absolutely the least based on an applicant being known to the music director or committee are some of the lowest-paying jobs - where the orchestra is simply hoping to have (at least) ONE really good player show up to audition, and is also hoping that the ONE really good player (once it is offered to them) accepts the job. These are the "foot-in-the-door/pay-your-dues" jobs. Holding down one of those jobs (when auditioning for next-rung-up orchestras) demonstrates to a committee and music director that SOMEONE recognizes you as "good" and (further) that you are a stable-enough person to have passed tenure and to not have been dismissed (tardiness, substance abuse, "difficulty-working-with", playing deficiencies, etc.) beyond the probationary period.

And yet there are always surprises. Carol Jansch won her job (with a first-tier orchestra) at age 18 or 19. And that was also true for Warren Deck, Sumner Erickson, and others I can think of. Even if there is a desired player, that player still had to live up to the expectations that day, and can apparently be dislodged by a brilliant audition from an unknown.

This is true in other fields, as well.

Rick "suspecting it takes brilliance, not mere competence" Denney

[ufonium2]

I'm on the academic side of music, so this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but for academic jobs the rule of thumb is "apply to as many jobs as an opening in your field normally gets applications." So if you're in a high-demand field like economics and only ten people apply for each opening, sending out ten applications might be enough. If you're in a glutted field like English, you should probably apply to everything you see. Of course this is a gross oversimplification, but it seems to work out. For instance, the year I was job searching I applied to 64 jobs (mostly musicology, some more general) and for the job I got, 57 people had applied. So, how many people auditioned when you did? Maybe that's an indicator of how many auditions you should expect to take (and maybe not).

[happyroman]

I'm on the academic side of music, so this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but for academic jobs the rule of thumb is "apply to as many jobs as an opening in your field normally gets applications." So if you're in a high-demand field like economics and only ten people apply for each opening, sending out ten applications might be enough. If you're in a glutted field like English, you should probably apply to everything you see. Of course this is a gross oversimplification, but it seems to work out. For instance, the year I was job searching I applied to 64 jobs (mostly musicology, some more general) and for the job I got, 57 people had applied. So, how many people auditioned when you did? Maybe that's an indicator of how many auditions you should expect to take (and maybe not).

Depending on the position, you can expect well over 100 applicants. They will automatically invite some applicants and may then require the rest to submit a recording. After hearing the recordings, the number of auditionees will be reduced to a workable number to actually play for the committee. When I was auditioning, it was unusual for orchestras to require recordings. If you were rejected initially, your teacher could possibly get you an invitation with a phone call (assuming the teacher believed you were qualified). The Baltimore Symphony audition that Dave Fedderly won was the first I remember where I had to make a tape (no CD burners or digital recording devices in the dark ages).

But you can't compare the number of applicants with the number of auditions required to get a gig. There just aren't that many openings. And, you aren't competing with every applicant. You are competing with the three or four that will make the finals. And ultimately, you are really only competing with yourself. The only limitations are those you impose on yourself. All you have to do is imagine what the best tuba player in the world would sound like playing the excerpts, and then play them as well or better. When you can do that, you will know that you are ready to win the audition.

[windshieldbug]

do what Warren Deck told us when he gave a clinic at Indiana University... above all, you must convey the fact that you are a musician who happens to play tuba. Use the brief opportunity you are on stage to make the music come to life. Sterile, technically proficient playing, without musicality, will get you dismissed pretty quickly.

Warren specifically told us not to worry about missing notes during the audition. He said there is no such thing as a note perfect audition and that missing notes never kept him from advancing in or winning any of his three auditions in Baltimore (one of three finalists), Houston (won), and New York (won).

This is on the mark... even though I doubt Ms. Jantsch missed any notes...

[Alex C]

One of the most recognized teachers in the US told a friend of mine something like this, "If you haven't gotten your foot in the door by the time you are 26 or 28, you should consider another path."

I think that is pretty good advice. Particularly in these fragile times for orchestras. Not only do you need to build a resume but musicians in orchestras around the country prefer to know something about the guy they are recommending to the music director.

[pecktime]

I believe I enjoy even more *not* sitting behind a music stand and creating my own bass lines for smaller groups of musicians (also not sitting behind music stands) to help them sound as fabulous as they are. "

Ssshhhhhh- don't let the word out man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZFAbaZZfe8" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

This was posted a while back, but it's worth another look.

[roweenie]

bloke "embracing the fact that I really like the part of the country in which I live, like playing in orchestras, but don't particularly like sitting in orchestra rehearsals 5X/wk. week-in/week-out. When this sometimes happens for a few weeks in a row, I'm just about ready for those 'streaks' to be over by the time they come to their ends, and - though I REALLY DO enjoy making chords with trombones/brass sections/orchestras and helping everyone else sound absolutely as fabulous as they are, I believe I enjoy even more *not* sitting behind a music stand and creating my own bass lines for smaller groups of musicians (also not sitting behind music stands) to help them sound as fabulous as they are. "

+1

The only thing I can add to this is "counting 246 measures, in multiple meters, to play one note, in a tuneless, shrieking piece of modern music".

[Three Valves]

The only thing I can add to this is "counting 246 measures, in multiple meters, to play one note, in a tuneless, shrieking piece of modern music".

Heh, heh

[tubanonymous]

Its very rare to see a young player in an orchestra--even for a string player, let alone winds or brass. From what I gather, orchestra is essentially an "old mans" game. You can probably play the ride just fine (I know I can personally, I have been practicing it for 7 years with the instruction of some of the best teachers).

Huh

That's not the case at all in the "big" orchestra I'm with (52 wk. contract, ~$100k starting pay) - every string audition we do has hundreds of applicants and I'd say 60% of those applicants are under 30 and 80% of the rest are under 40. And they're not just auditioning for the experience (we don't have time for that, frankly). They're invited to the audition because they're viable candidates, as they should be. They're winning jobs. And not just with "my orchestra" either, strings sections all across the United States are shifting to sections full of young players...and let me tell you...they can play.

For winds, brass, and percussion the crowd tends to a little older on average, but we still see the vast majority of applicants [and eventual "winners] under 40.

This isn't to say anything except that your generalization isn't accurate and that as someone involved in this stuff on a daily basis, I can say definitively that auditioning is a young person's game, without question. I wear several hats where I work, but part of my job title includes "orchestra personnel" and "audition coordinator." I know that of which I speak.

I think the disagreement is that your version of young is 30, and mine is 22

[Tom]

I think the disagreement is that your version of young is 30, and mine is 22

[k001k47]

I quit before taking any auditions.
You lose all the auditions you don't take.
You can do it. I believe in you. So on and so on blah blah blah

[kontrabass]

One of the most recognized teachers in the US told a friend of mine something like this, "If you haven't gotten your foot in the door by the time you are 26 or 28, you should consider another path.".

Yes good advice. By the time you're in your late twenties, it's been likely a DECADE of solid work on being a player, and if success has not started to happen by then, it's likely not going to in the way you want. If I look at the friends I was in school with - as a cohort we are now nearing our mid-thirties- the ones that never "broke through" and are still grinding it out with teaching and freelance gigs are starting to drop away and scramble for new professions. The ones that changed trajectories in their late twenties now have thriving new careers. And the ones that made it, mostly made it young, they won a job (or got well established in the freelance networks) at 23, 25, 26. And you don't see this but they'd been winning before, solo competitions, concerto competitions, regional orchestra and youth orchestra chairs when they were 21, 18, 16, etc. Some of these friends of mine may go on to win the "big" audition at age 40. It may seem like they've come out of nowhere when in reality they've been steadily working their way up the industry, already successful, just patiently raising the bar inch by inch.

[b.williams]

One of the most recognized teachers in the US told a friend of mine something like this, "If you haven't gotten your foot in the door by the time you are 26 or 28, you should consider another path.".

Yes good advice. By the time you're in your late twenties, it's been likely a DECADE of solid work on being a player, and if success has not started to happen by then, it's likely not going to in the way you want. If I look at the friends I was in school with - as a cohort we are now nearing our mid-thirties- the ones that never "broke through" and are still grinding it out with teaching and freelance gigs are starting to drop away and scramble for new professions. The ones that changed trajectories in their late twenties now have thriving new careers. And the ones that made it, mostly made it young, they won a job (or got well established in the freelance networks) at 23, 25, 26. And you don't see this but they'd been winning before, solo competitions, concerto competitions, regional orchestra and youth orchestra chairs when they were 21, 18, 16, etc. Some of these friends of mine may go on to win the "big" audition at age 40. It may seem like they've come out of nowhere when in reality they've been steadily working their way up the industry, already successful, just patiently raising the bar inch by inch.

+10000000

[tubanonymous]

My thoughts exactly

[PMeuph]

1 on tuba for a small regional orchestra. 2 on euph for Military bands.

I didn't get past the first round in any of them and I don't intend to do any more with the hopes of earning a living. I would like to play tuba in an orchestra someday (even an amateur one), but I don't see that happening unless I move. All the local orchestras, even the unpaid ones, have aspiring "professionals" playing in them. Maybe when I move away from the big city, I'll find a smaller city where I can play in an orchestra. But, for now, it mostly bands and chamber groups.