How accurate is this article?

[Biggs]

A h-u-g-e percentage of degrees have no practical applications and really can only lead to (likely: "adjunct" - i.e. not-a-living-wage) college teaching jobs - i.e. "passing it on to the next generation of 'monks'."

I would dispute this claim only insofar as the degrees you're referencing don't "only" lead to limited immediate job prospects, but can also lead to great personal satisfaction and happiness.This is made much more likely if one enters the process with eyes-wide-open awareness of the financial reality and doesn't treat college like some kind of get-rich-quick scheme.

I graduated with a degree in tuba performance and earned $XXXX playing tuba in 2015. I earned $XX,XXX doing my real job. Should I be mad that my tuba degree has had a poor ROI? Of course not: it's a tuba degree, not a lottery ticket. I'm proud of myself for completing the degree (something most people on Earth can't or don't do) and my life is satisfying in part because 1.) I can read, comprehend, and play music at a high level and 2.) I have the tools and confidence to challenge myself to do it at a higher level. Not to mention that while I was working on that worthless tuba degree, I perfected the work ethic, time-management skills, and professionalism I use to excel in the workplace.

Yes, my tuba degree led to limited immediate job prospects, but it ALSO led to a certain degree of 'joy' in my life. College might be a terrible means of financial enrichment, but it is a great opportunity for personal enrichment provided you are honest with yourself about whatever money you're leaving on the table.

[Three Valves]

A h-u-g-e percentage of degrees have no practical applications and really can only lead to (likely: "adjunct" - i.e. not-a-living-wage) college teaching jobs - i.e. "passing it on to the next generation of 'monks'."

I would dispute this claim only insofar as the degrees you're referencing don't "only" lead to limited immediate job prospects, but can also lead to great personal satisfaction and happiness.This is made much more likely if one enters the process with eyes-wide-open awareness of the financial reality and doesn't treat college like some kind of get-rich-quick scheme.

I graduated with a degree in tuba performance and earned $XXXX playing tuba in 2015. I earned $XX,XXX doing my real job. Should I be mad that my tuba degree has had a poor ROI? Of course not: it's a tuba degree, not a lottery ticket. I'm proud of myself for completing the degree (something most people on Earth can't or don't do) and my life is satisfying in part because 1.) I can read, comprehend, and play music at a high level and 2.) I have the tools and confidence to challenge myself to do it at a higher level. Not to mention that while I was working on that worthless tuba degree, I perfected the work ethic, time-management skills, and professionalism I use to excel in the workplace.

Yes, my tuba degree led to limited immediate job prospects, but it ALSO led to a certain degree of 'joy' in my life. College might be a terrible means of financial enrichment, but it is a great opportunity for personal enrichment provided you are honest with yourself about whatever money you're leaving on the table.

It appears you have succeeded in making a distinction with no difference.

No one has said music majors are lacking joy in their studies.

Your anecdotal evidence can be added to the plethora of examples that suggest Bloke's hypothesis is correct.

Play on!!

[timothy42b]

There seems to consistently be a definite trend for WHITE MALE and BLACK candidates to gravitate towards degrees which (arguably) are only of use within the realm of private/government academia (re-teaching, but not much application).
There seems to consistently be a definite trend for a (significantly high) percentage of WHITE FEMALE candidates to gravitate towards the medical and medical service industries (applicable outside of academia) degrees.
There seems to consistently be a definite trend for Middle Eastern and Asian candidates to gravitate towards mathematical, technical, scientific, and medical/medical research (applicable outside of academia) degrees.

Perhaps, but this can change over time. When I went to engineering school many decades ago, it was basically white male.

Now it's more than half female, with significant nonwhite percentages.

[Mark]

I believe a very good career plan is to get a BS in a marketable engineering discipline, work a few years as an engineer and then get an MBA and move into management. I'm a little less sure about the MBA these days; but it's still a good plan.

[Mark]

Huh. I didn't encounter algebraic topology until graduate school at Northwestern.

Well, I went to Rice University. Clearly a better school.

[Mark]

A h-u-g-e percentage of degrees have no practical applications and really can only lead to (likely: "adjunct" - i.e. not-a-living-wage) college teaching jobs - i.e. "passing it on to the next generation of 'monks'."

Case in point: tuba performance degrees. How many tuba performance degrees are granted each year compared to actual tuba performance jobs available?

[Three Valves]

I believe a very good career plan is to get a BS in a marketable engineering discipline, work a few years as an engineer and then get an MBA and move into management. I'm a little less sure about the MBA these days; but it's still a good plan.

I am predicting a surge of employment opportunities in the Grievance Industry.

At least in the near term!!

[Rick Denney]

Huh. I didn't encounter algebraic topology until graduate school at Northwestern.

Well, I went to Rice University. Clearly a better school.

This requires a further diversion...

Any mention of Rice University in the context of mathematics necessitates mentioning Dr. Frank Jones, certainly one of the superior college teaching mathematicians on the planet, even now well into his 80's. Fortunately, I know him in a different context. But it was he who made me realize just how difficult and intuitive advanced math really is, all the while presenting it as a completely accessible pursuit. If you're smart enough.

So, did you meet Dr. Jones at Rice?

The notion that the study of mathematics should be done strictly for the purposes of successful employment is not one he would support, I don't think. And those who entered that course of study with only that motivation would have struggled to survive in it, I suspect. That's the kind of math that mathematicians do for the same reason that musicians are compelled to perform music.

Rick "we may have had this conversation before" Denney

[Jesse Brook]

I wish I had more tuba players along for the ride with me. I am in 6 or 7 bands mostly because of a singular lack of folks that play tuba.

I went tuba at Grade 8, and ain't changin' my ways. Amen to the reference to tubavangelism.

[royjohn]

An interesting thread that has basically turned into career counseling, but tuba players, for all the reasons already mentioned, do need that. Below a few ideas that have not been covered.

1.People make differing career decisions based on what kind of earnings they can be comfortable with. Many farmers are technically "poor" but the grow what they eat. The work is physically hard, but some love it. Most teachers end up in primary or secondary ed. It is a decent living, but you won't get rich. Some love teaching or love the idea of a pension after X number of years (tho' that may be changing). Others want a high dollar career, in medicine or lawyering or some such. One needs to figure out where one fits.

2. Sometimes we don't spend enough time thinking about what our employment situation would be. As a career psychologist, I was always frustrated by being #2 to some undereducated and arrogant MD who ran the show. If I had it to do over again, I would get the MD or find another line of work where I could be my own boss. Will you want to work in a small organization, or are you comfortable in a big bureaucracy? Etc.

3. As some have mentioned, most colleges will take your money and let you take any course of study without telling you how many graduates in that field actually get work in their field or what they will earn. While education for life is nice, with some philosophy, art, music and literature thrown in, a college education is today advanced training for a job or profession. Ideally a college student would have access to the data about number of folks placed in their fields per graduating class and average starting salary. To me it is crazy to go to a private university and end up with $50k to $75K in loans and then take a psychology or history major. In my state, you can take your first two years at community college cheaper and then transfer to the state university with in-state tuition and keep your loans below $30K. Even better if you can bust it in high school, get a lot of scholarships and AP credit for most of your freshman year.

4. In many fields, college internships are the key to post graduation jobs. Even in high school, learning about what various careers are really like and maybe doing some job shadowing will be very valuable. Doing the job is different in many cases from passing the courses.

5. For many students, a vocational preference (not aptitude, but preference or interest) test is useful. A tuba player might find a high loading on artistic, but what is his secondary loading? If it is business, get a business degree. If it is technical, maybe an IT major or minor or one in recording and media. If it's a helping profession, music therapy or music ed. And so on. Interest tests are seldom a complete surprise, but they do make you think about the various spheres of human interest and where you fit. For example, if you have zero interest in clerical, ordering and structuring, best to know you will need lifelong help or discipline in these matters.

6.Everyone should start to learn about budgeting, taxes and saving as early as possible. It does not come naturally to most of us to keep track of our spending, but it is a way to saving and retiring early. Anybody can do it, but it is hard work. Saving those receipts is also a way to save on taxes. Many of us can have a second "job" investing in rental property or small business. You may be very good at buying and selling real estate, or very good at the physical work of rehabbing property. Or perhaps you are good at some part time small business. I sure wish someone had made me learn how to save and spend less and clued me into a business venture when I was a kid. I know a lady who raises and also buys and sells litters of bull dogs. There's a litter in the basement or the kitchen all the time in a wire enclosure...I think they go for $700 to $1500 each and she sells a couple every month. A website with cute pictures. People drive in from 1000 miles to get one. Lots of options for businesses. You could become a brass tech and develop an ongoing on line contribution to a brass forum (LOL!). That could be fun, as there is no bad publicity and you could say any outrageous crap you wanted to...

7. Right before I got my doctorate, I had a last thought of going into music as an operatic bass-baritone. My sometime teacher at the time was a Juilliard professor and he said, "You know Mr.X and Miss Y (two extremely fine singers I had met at a workshop he gave)...they are starving and working second jobs in NYC...do you want to do that?" So I dropped that idea. What he didn't tell me (but was also true) was that I wasn't a great musician and didn't have a music degree, and that I had a very nice voice, but it wasn't really big enough for the operatic stage in the biggest houses. I think anyone considering a career in music should get some really straight talk from someone they trust. While practice will turn you into a good to excellent player, to get a tuba job you just need to have talent that is recognizable pretty much right from the get-go. After a few years of band someone honest should be able to tell you whether a seat in an orchestra is likely for you.

That's all I got...hope it wasn't too much. Oh, and I also agree the OP is very sensible and literate and well mannered and I predict he could go far, just not sure whether in music, STEM or business or???

[Three Valves]

If I were the son of an 18th or 19th Century Gentleman Farmer, I'd go to Kolig to study Philosophy, Greek classics or fine art, come back with a Liberal Arts degree, and be a Gentleman Farmer.

[sirtar]

I have pondered this article since I finished reading. I can only speak from what I have experienced in life. I have been a band director and administrator for 34 years and have enjoyed all aspects in life. Now after retirement I begin the next chapter in my life, which is playing my tuba until I cannot anymore.

Many of my fellow tuba players are very good. many are accountants, engineers, doctors, welders, repairman who enjoy playing as I do. We play in community bands, German polka bands, quintets and church ensembles.

Some have many years of playing, some are young and learning the skills needed to make good choices in life. Some that play in the German groups desire to keep the music and culture in today's society. Other want to relive memories of times long ago.

It is not always about the money, although at times it does help. It is due to the fact that we all enjoy playing in a group with common goals. We were taught to enjoy music. Our directos instilled In us that music will make us better people. To enjoy this specific moment that we share In a musical performance.

You ask how? The sheer determination to be the best at our performance will teach us to set goals and learn how to create a perfect performance. In which we strive to attain. Which we have all translated to become exceptional in our careers.

We understand that competition Is part of life. To attain the best performance requires dedication, time spent as the individual performer and member of the group. To be able to work together to achieve a common goal. (It sounds like a business model)

I was a band director for 20 years of my life. When an opportunity presented itself to become a school administrator. I jumped at it. Only so many positions are available and the pay was more than I made as a director. The reason I mention this is because we might start in one career and sometime in life we start another. The reason is simple. Provide for our families. Other are fortunate and stay in one career until retirement. As an administrator I strived to have our school to work together and improve our students educational experience. To get 100 teachers to work at achieving that goal and work as a group and not individual. I moved to central office administration and strived to get 1000 teachers and other administrators to reach a common goal.

Those that perform at the professional level have been given a gift that they have been able to develop to a level of almost perfection. They are to be admired for what they can accomplish. This does not mean that the rest are any less. In one of the German polka brass groups I play in is a gentleman who enjoys playing his tuba. He is older and has illnesses beyond belief. Yet he brings his 1960 model Miraphone and sits and plays. Plays in tune and does not miss rehearsals no matter how he feels. He wanted to drop out of the groups because he could not carry that horn around. I had a Sanders Etude tuba and sold it to him. He bought a gig bag and is still playing in the group. He will play until he cannot.

I asked why he continues to play? His response was simple. I love playing my tuba. That is why we all do this.

[windshieldbug]

The only extra thing that kolij supplies is someone (who is responsible for scoring you on your articulation with these studies) who has their own opinions about these things, and expects you to "learn how to think"... just like they think.

But, to be honest, that is exactly the corriculum at most conservatories...

[Mark]

Huh. I didn't encounter algebraic topology until graduate school at Northwestern.

Well, I went to Rice University. Clearly a better school.

So, did you meet Dr. Jones at Rice?

Small world. Dr. Jones was my advisor.

[Biggs]

It appears you have succeeded in making a distinction with no difference.

No one has said music majors are lacking joy in their studies.

Your anecdotal evidence can be added to the plethora of examples that suggest Bloke's hypothesis is correct.

Play on!!

Uh, yes? If you read my post, you would recall that I was objecting to the assertion that tuba (et al) degrees only [emphasis mine] lead to limited immediate job prospects, not the assertion that tuba degrees lead to limited immediate job prospects.

[Rick Denney]

Small world. Dr. Jones was my advisor.

He advised me, too, but in a different context.

Rick "who has met few who could so obviously read minds" Denney

[BMadsen]

Well, in the context of having a career playing just tuba, incredibly accurate.

However, about having a career in music, well….. that's debatable.

I'm going to preface all of my comments with this statement, originally stated to me by Jack Schatz (I'm distilling and paraphrasing what was discussed in about 30 minutes here, but it boils down to this simple bit of advice). If you can be happy making a living doing anything else, and playing music as a hobby, you will likely lead a far more comfortable lifestyle and still be happy. Only pursue performing music as a career if you CAN'T be happy doing anything else.

So, who am I? A busy freelance musician in the NYC metro area, known around town but with little (or no) national name. I've experienced growth of 8-10% in my income every year for the past 5 years since I left teaching music as a full time teacher for the NYC DOE, although I have yet to make that kind of money. I played over 400 rehearsals/gigs last year, and have a very small (but growing) private student base. Why do I tell you all of this? Because it's important to put my advice in the proper context, and take it or leave it based on your own situation.

You are young. You have lots of time to decide what you want to do, and what you don't want to do. If you want a career in music, you need to decide what that career looks like, and then seek out those players to figure out what that looks like. A lot of pro musicians are very nice people who will happily answer questions for no more than a cup of coffee at Starbucks, or will write to you if you aren't local to them. (A lot can be dicks as well - don't get me wrong - but you have nothing to lose by reaching out to those players who have the career you aspire to). You also need to have flexibility, and decide how happy you will be if you don't achieve the ideal career (which, in this business, most don't).

The reality is, no matter how much you think you enjoy something, when it becomes your job, there is drudgery attached. Daily practice becomes a grind for almost every pro I know. Most pro's spend a lot more time than you'd expect on the computer and phone hustling gigs, setting up rehearsals, hiring musicians, etc. And, if you want to be busy, you have to be as good at all of that (and keeping well organized books, both financial and musical), as well as a great player. Every busy musician I know has regular gigs that keep the lights on, food on the table, etc, and sometimes you dread going to those gigs. But you do it because it's your job. There is no such thing as sick pay, vacation time, etc - so if you aren't working, you aren't making money. It's a very hard life, and getting busy can be both a blessing and a curse. My wife and I talk a lot about how frustrating it is to plan vacations, because if I get too many good calls for when we thought we'd leave town with our daughter for a weekend (or week, or whatever), all the sudden things are off and I'm working (because, you don't want to leave that money on that table, seeing as things can change in an instant in this profession).

Stability is a joke - I can typically count on november and january being terrible months. This january has been good "for a january," but january of 2015 was so dead I might as well not have worked. So you have to get very good at managing your money - good months, you put extra away, so when the bad months hit, you aren't screwed.

And, you are facing a market with slowly diminishing prospects with an ever expanding pool of applicants. So, competition is not only fierce, but insane at times. Before I decided I didn't want to pursue the orchestra chair, I was on the audition circuit (as a trombonist), and I kid you not, 300 trombonists showed up for a part-time orchestra near Lake Erie. Job paid $10k a year, no travel benefits, and limited subbing potential. I saw lots of fellow NY players taking the audition, in the hopes of being able to commute from NYC for the gig (a 7 hour drive one way).

I don't tell you all of this to scare you away - but if you are going to pursue this, you need to be aware of what you are in for.

So, my advice? If you are going to try to be a professional musician, explore the idea of doubling. A lot of musicals use a "low brass" chair, so being able to play multiple instruments at a very high level only increases your employability. I regularly work on tenor bone (both large bore for classical and small for commercial/jazz), bass trumpet, tuba, and bass bone, and can also play alto bone, euphonium, tenor herald trumpet, and valve bone. The most logical double to get into would be bass trombone, as it's a similar range, and a similar role (although there are differences), and the mouthpiece, while smaller, is about as close as you can get. Tenor bone would make you more employable, since it's called for a lot more, but it will be a little more work to get used to. And, the ultimate compliment is to have whatever instrument you are playing be mistaken as your primary. That's when you know you are getting to where you need to be to work.

Learn to play all styles of music, and as you master new instruments, be able to master their role in those settings - so, as a tubist, be able to improvise bass lines for Dixieland and NOLA brass bands, as well as play in brass quintets, concert bands, orchestras, etc.

Learn how to teach. It's an art that few take the time to learn, and if you become known as a great teacher, you can command high rates, making you good money while not taking up a lot of time (or stupid good money while taking up a lot of time - whatever you want and can attract).

Learn music software. Sibelius and/or Finale, Protools and/or Logic, etc. Be well versed in them. There is a slowly growing market for remote recording that you can get yourself into if you can setup a home studio where you can produce excellent sounding tracks of yourself, and if you can arrange, it becomes another salable skill (or, a skill that will keep you in groups if you are handling all the charts for them).

Don't be passive. Go out and network, form groups, setup rehearsals, get things going. If you are proactive in trying to create work, you will have other musicians who want to be on your call list, and will in turn call you for work.

I can go on, but I have to start getting ready for a gig tonight. Best of luck!

[roweenie]

BMadsen,

Everything you say is right on the money when it comes to being a free lancer, especially in NYC.

...since I left teaching music as a full time teacher for the NYC DOE, although I have yet to make that kind of money. I played over 500 rehearsals/gigs last year...

However, I don't quite understand the math of this statement. You mean to say you play an average of almost 2 gigs a day, every day (probably actually more than two a day, considering you had a "January of 2015 [that] was so dead I might as well not have worked"), and don't make as much money as a public school music teacher?

If this statement is accurate, things are worse than I thought they were nowadays.

(I was at one time both an "active full time professional " free lancer and a community school board member in NYC, so I have a little insight into what I'm saying).

[BMadsen]

BMadsen,

Everything you say is right on the money when it comes to being a free lancer, especially in NYC.

...since I left teaching music as a full time teacher for the NYC DOE, although I have yet to make that kind of money. I played over 500 rehearsals/gigs last year...

However, I don't quite understand the math of this statement. You mean to say you play an average of almost 2 gigs a day, every day (probably actually more than two a day, considering you had a "January of 2015 [that] was so dead I might as well not have worked"), and don't make as much money as a public school music teacher?

If this statement is accurate, things are worse than I thought they were nowadays.

(I was at one time both an "active full time professional " free lancer and a community school board member in NYC, so I have a little insight into what I'm saying).

Hi roweenie,

Thanks for calling my attention to the typo - it was supposed to be 400, not 500, although I didn't officially count in this year (2014 was about 375, and I worked a lot more this year than I did last year). And I do have many days where I have 2 services in a day (gigs/recording sessions/rehearsals/etc), and, if I average it out over the year, probably have about 20 days with 3 services in a day.

And that's not only gigs and recording sessions, but rehearsals, whether unpaid or paid. Often, I will have a rehearsal and a gig tied together - if you don't do the rehearsal, you don't get the gig. And, there are lots of rehearsals I do that are for networking and don't pay anything (and, since 99% of those are in Manhattan, I lose money because my roundtrip expenses are close to $20 for that). And, some gigs net me negative pay (they do pay, but it's just enough to help cover some travel expenses), but again, are great for networking with certain players, such as Broadway players. But, the vast majority of my work pays.

I also looked back at Jan 2015, and while I didn't make much at all, I did have a fair number of rehearsals such as I described above. So, I suppose my earlier statement about working so little in January I might as well not have is also a little off the mark (although I made so little money it feels that way sometimes).

And teachers are doing pretty well here. When I left in 2011, I was up to $60k a year, without a masters degree - that masters would have added $5k to that figure. Pay has gone up since then.

I could talk about the decline in the work around NY - and there has been a decline - but what I'm noticing, from where I sit, is a decline in good paying union work and club dates. My average gig pays (if I take all the rehearsals I do out of it) $125 - 150 a hit, and that includes the 100 or so chinese funeral gigs that only pay $50 a hit (more if we go to the cemetery).

What I am seeing, however, is that unless you are one of the top 1% of young players trying to break in, union work is essentially gone. And, the ones I see making a good living are the ones who are thinking about their gigging like starting a business - they are not only trying to network, but they are creating their own products to sell (in the form of bands, accompanying merch, etc).

It's always been hard to make a living in this business. But, from everyone I've met who has come before me, seeing the struggles the current crop of under 30 players face (and, even the under 40 like myself), they feel it's harder than ever, with diminishing opportunity and more and more difficulty even planning for retirement. I'm lucky that I'm happily married to someone with a good job and health insurance, and we are putting away money for retirement, but it would be extremely difficult to do that living in the NYC area on what I made last year if I was single. I'm sure I could do it, but it wouldn't be easy.

[ghmerrill]

I believe I could probably own a well-fixed-up 3BR 2BA trailer home on a NOT-in-a-floodplain acre or two of land, probably with the options of a garden, a catfish pond, heating with wood, and c. $100 - $300 yr. property tax...
...that compared to a $2XXX - to $3XXX/mo. 800 - 1000 sq. ft. 3rd story walk-up, quaint HVAC and plumbing, sounds seeping through every wall, and people with their hands out at every turn.

Well, yeah, but how far are you from the MALL? And is Mrs. Bloke pining all day for that five-minute ride to the mall? And how you do you live without the excitement of having quick access to the city center and the night life? And, by the way, how do you get that wood? Most of the people I ever worked with, and certainly almost all of the faculty I taught with years ago, find the description you just provided to be not just unattractive, but terrifying. Good god, man! You're describing something out of "Deliverance".

Different strokes for different folks, and sacrifices may need to be made.

Depressingly, people often think they get what they want and need, but sometimes it's at least partly illusory. I still remember a conversation many years a go with a colleague when I was teaching at Loyola and we were having dinner with him and his wife at their home. He asked (imagine a fairly heavy German accent) "How can you guys live so far away? I couldn't stand to be so far away from the city. It's great to be able to go to the museums, restaurants, and concerts." We were living in Zion -- about a 40-minute train/el ride to campus. He was living in a development in Evanston (about a 20-30 minute drive from campus). I asked him "But Hans, how often do you do that?" He thought for a minute and said "Two or three times a year," and I said "Well, I think then we do it more often than you." But he HAD to live in the urban area. Anything else made him feel creepy.

On the other hand, in 2001 I worked for a VP at Novartis who had to live in the alps and was willing to endure some inconvenience in terms of commuting to do that. Anything else made him feel creepy.

Some people just have to live in urban areas. I guess the rest of us should be grateful that they do. I also guess that if you're going to try to live as a professional musician, you'd better be pretty close to where there is the largest and most constant clustering of jobs. Somehow I'm thinking that rural Tennessee might not make the cut.