Dealing with switching between tubas of different Keys

[Radar]

I've been playing CC tuba almost exclusively since getting my Miraphone 186 CC several months ago. I am going to have to go back to playing BBb for preparation for the marching season coming up. I've been keeping up my Euphonium playing so I haven't totally forgotten Bb fingerings. I do find myself occasionally lapsing into CC fingerings when playing the Euphonium / or BBb fingerings when playing the CC horn. I was just wondering how most of you who play horns in different keys approach this. IE: Are you thinking fingerings for one key horn consistently and transposing in your head for horns in other keys, or do you just think in the different fingerings for the different horns?

[windshieldbug]

Either stick with it until you can or transpose the music. There is no trick, other than to put something on the bell of each horn to remind you what key you're in if you can't remember.

[scottw]

As you get older, you may lose some ability to process the differences, but approach it the same as when you were younger and tried to adapt to a different situation. It just takes more work, more concentration, and more mistakes until you get comfortable. I have been playing Eb along with BBb for about 3 years, and I can say it is just now getting comfortable. I still have brain farts now and then, usually in either something technically challenging or something familiar already in the other key. I just have fewer and fewer now!

[happyroman]

Harvey Phillips used to say that the tuba player needed to have four brains, one in Bb, one in C, one in Eb and one in F.

When I switched from BBb to CC, I ended up writing in all of the new fingerings for several months, until they finally became second nature. A few years later, when I began to learn F tuba, it was a lot easier to pick up because half of the fingerings were the same as CC, and the process went a lot faster.

Eventually, with enough practice, your brain will automatically cause your fingers to push the right valves depending on the instrument you have in your hands. Mr. Jacobs would call it a conditioned response to a stimulus. But until you get it to the automatic level, it will be a challenge.

Finally, to actually answer your question, you may initially need to think in one key and relate/transpose the other pitched instrument to what you are thinking. But the goal should ideally be to go beyond that point so that you automatically think in the key of the instrument you are playing.

[Three Valves]

It's B-flat or No-flat!!

[Ulli]

Harvey Phillips used to say that the tuba player needed to have four brains, one in Bb, one in C, one in Eb and one in F.

That's just what I am training.
But it is really dangerous: If I start to think about while playing, I also start to make mistakes. That's why in orchestra I only play BBb Tubas.

[theatomizer13]

The easiest thing for me was to just memorize the marching music ASAP. Then you just do it and you dont have to think of the notes. It sucks, I switched to CC right at the beginning of marching and I was only playing CC for orchestra and BBb for band. Now when I switch back and forth I just turn my brain to BBb or CC sometimes thinking trumpet. It helps since the sousaphone is such a different feel than an orchestral CC, Think of it as a totally different instrument.

[Heliconer]

For me, it comes down to thinking of each of my horns as a completely different instruments, not just a Tuba in Eb/F/C/Bb, but an F Tuba, C Tuba, Bb Tuba, and Eb Tuba.

I also try to keep each key on different styles of horns:

F and C are front action, Bb and Eb are top action. (For the most part)

[Travis99079]

Might just be restating what others have said, but I'll pitch in anyways.

For me, I thought less about the notes and more about the physical change. Instead of transposing on the fly, I just learned that when I see say, an F, I push down first valve...conditioned response to a stimulus. This created muscle memory and automatic response much more efficiently than thinking, "okay, on BBb, this is open, so up a whole-step means I have to pretend I'm fingering an Eb, which would be down a whole-step."

No way, that takes way too long. Granted, I think this method may be a little slow going at first, but it's worth it. The best thing you can do is just read a ton of music and dive head first. The more you make yourself adapt, the faster you'll get more comfortable. Happy practicing!

[Radar]

Thanks for all the response, it seems to reinforce that the way I've been approaching it is the way most of you have suggested. I have been thinking different fingerings for different horns and it works for me 99%, it is that occasional brain fart that makes me wonder if there isn't a better way. I'll just keep working at it, and I'm sure even at my age I'll get the hang of it.

[Donn]

The easiest thing for me was to just memorize the marching music ASAP. Then you just do it and you dont have to think of the notes.

You can even use this technique when reading. Consider:

You "don't think of the notes" when you've memorized the music, because you know them - you know them in your "ear", and you can play music by ear. You also may be able to read music and hear it, without the aid of any musical instrument. Both of these skills are quite valuable for any musician, and can be cultivated by ordinary mortals. When you can do both well, then I guess you can read music and play it in any key you want.

I personally can't claim to be at that point, so I don't think of it as easy, but it's worth thinking about. See/hear/play music, not notes.

[Art Hovey]

Being slightly dyslexic, I have never been very good at reading music. Playing "by ear" has always been easier for me. My main instrument is BBb tuba, but I can get through a dixieland gig on CC tuba with no problem because I can hear in my mind what notes I want to play, and my fingers know how to make those notes come out. If I had better sight-singing skill I would be able to mentally translate the dots on the page into the intended sounds (instead of fingerings) and let the fingers take care of the rest. So I continue to work on sight-reading something every day on the BBb tuba and then play the same exercise on CC.

[Doug Elliott]

This may be the opposite of some others' advice, but I'm used to that by now...

As a tenor trombone player, I learned both Eb and F alto trombone at the same time.
Side note - I have perfect pitch, so transposing is really not an option.
I found it extremely helpful to think note name and position for every note before I played it. Slow, but continuous reinforcement, both with and without reading music.

I made sure I was never lost. Eventually it becomes automatic and PERMANENT. I would not hesitate to play alto on a gig even if I haven't touched it in 6 months. In fact there's a YouTube video of me playing alto at a jam session under exactly those conditions.

[Radar]

This may be the opposite of some others' advice, but I'm used to that by now...

As a tenor trombone player, I learned both Eb and F alto trombone at the same time.
Side note - I have perfect pitch, so transposing is really not an option.
I found it extremely helpful to think note name and position for every note before I played it. Slow, but continuous reinforcement, both with and without reading music.

I made sure I was never lost. Eventually it becomes automatic and PERMANENT. I would not hesitate to play alto on a gig even if I haven't touched it in 6 months. In fact there's a YouTube video of me playing alto at a jam session under exactly those conditions.

This is basically the method I've been using, and I'm finding it easier to go back and forth between the horns in the different keys, and I'm having fewer lapses. I guess it's just a mater of continuing to reinforce the fingerings for the different instruments.

[Rick Denney]

For me, it's like learning a language. To be fluent in a language, you have to be able to think in that language, and any internal translation will just slow you down.

So, what does it take to be fluent in a language? Using it in situations where fluency is expected and routine. When I learned F, I wrote in fingerings for a while, played music I already knew, and played scales and etudes. It took a while (I don't have a life where I can spend hours a day practicing, by any means), but eventually it came. Now, my reading skills are about equally bad on both Bb and F, but in different ways. I have F-tuba moments on Bb when I'm in the upper register, and Bb-tuba moments on F in the lower register, and so on. But the more I keep up with practice on each instrument, the less often that happens.

It used to be that the piston tuba was F and the rotary was Bb, and then for a long time it was the reverse. Now, both Bb and F might be rotary or piston, so that physical switch is no longer a trigger. So, I just turn the switch in my head--"I am playing an F tuba now." I know it sounds corny and stupid, but if I don't say it to myself, my brain may not make the switch.

One exercise I've been doing recently is playing duet etudes on both parts, switching back and forth between F and Bb for each of the parts. It's good for chop exercise, too, and the difference in the way my tubas blow and their intonation tendencies is also a switch that has to be flipped.

Rick "you have to do the work of internalizing the instruments at some point" Denney

[PaulMaybery]

Back in the "dark ages" when some of us were beginners, I would read about Bill Bell playing his solos on an Eb sousaphone, the CC (and his little King F tuba) in the orchestra, the big BBb in the summer band at Asbury park, and even a euphonium. He also is credited with stressing the importance of learning treble clef with trumpet fingers, as this would open up a new realm of literature. (I'm not sure he was necessarily thinking in terms of the British brass band back then) To a HS kid with just a few years under his belt, this was overwhelming. I was also trying to learn string bass and trombone. After 8 years on the BBb I bit the bullet and bought a CC and eventually sold the trusty BBb. The the following year I got the F. While I loved how these worked, and I was doing mostly orchestra, I was still very insecure with fingerings and sometimes just screwed up. Now that was about 50 years ago and I can't quite remember how all those transitions actually worked themselves out. Today, I can go from one horn to the next without any stress. BTW, I went back and got myself a BBb to keep in the "tuba barn.' I would say, the feel of each horn reminds me what key it is in and hence the fingers go into body memory mode and just do it. Okay, sometimes in something tricky I need to cool down and work on it. I suppose there is a slightly different process for everyone who has gone through this. I can see why some of my friends simply stick to BBb. I know trumpet players who only play Bb. (I know that is hard to imagine them without a suitcase full of gear, but there are some).

Something interesting: When I switched from BBb to CC (and I think the term 'switching' is a bad term - rather we 'add' to our repertory of tricks) I kept getting confused. I was trying to forget the BBb. In the process of trying to tell myself to forget and that the fingerings are one note different, in effect I kept reminding myself of the BBb fingers. Somehow it all worked out for the CC, and when I did pick up a BBb, I was lost. ( I 'thought' I had finally forgotten the BBb - not really - there is more to the story) I did manage to overpower those BBb fingers, or so I thought. But then, low and behold I found myself in a small town band, playing euphonium in bass clef. The Bb fingers came back in an instant, even at an octave transposition. Then shortly after I got an old BBb tuba and used that on the bandwagon. No problem. The BBb fingers all came back from deep in those dark recesses of memory. I do play Eb, but have always done that in treble clef in a brass band context (Thank you Mr. Bell for the trumpet fingers.) But even treble clef euphonium is no problem. The CC and F were unscathed, and because they are my two finest tubas, I work on them pretty diligently. When I was a kid, I could never have imagined that I would be able to do all this, but over time we keep accumulating all sorts of tricks, or as they say in education "skill sets." I had a psychologist friend once try to explain "compartmentalization" to me. Long story for another time. But I do think that is what eventually is happening in our minds. We learn skill sets separately and apply them to the appropriate tools.

While I am glad I am a "very seasoned player' I don't appreciate being inside an the body of an 'old geezer.' It took too dang long to learn all these tricks and now it is painful to just get out of bed in the morning. Thanks to modern chemestry we can deny things for a little while longer. For others of you who are in the 'later movements of the symphony of life', I hope you are encouraged to stay in the game. Keep amazing yourself that you can still play and even 'learn' a few more tricks. Okay, we're probably 'forgetting' some too.

Paul (who still has buckets of enthusiasm for playing and loves being around others who share in the fun) Maybery

[ghmerrill]

It's like speaking different languages -- I mean, it's REALLY like speaking different languages. Actually, it IS speaking different languages -- just with your fingers (or slide, or whatever). To some degree you can get along with "thinking in English" and then uttering more or less correct French or German or Russian or ... But it will only work when you're doing it fairly slowly and the subject matter isn't very complex. To communicate effectively, you have to learn (and think in -- or even as Bloke suggested, beyond think in) the other language.

I find that when I switch between the Eb tuba and the Bb euphonium, I stumble a bit for a little while. But then it's like throwing a switch. I still marvel at a conversation I was confusingly involved in outside a French restaurant just over the border from Basel as my group was discussing who would ride back with whom and to where. The French in the group were talking in French and English, I was sort of almost following some of the stuff in French and German, and the Swiss were just switching among all three languages like it didn't matter to them at all. There wasn't any thinking/translating going on. Ultimately, it has to be like that.

[ppalan]

Back in the "dark ages" when some of us were beginners, I would read about Bill Bell playing his solos on an Eb sousaphone, the CC (and his little King F tuba) in the orchestra, the big BBb in the summer band at Asbury park, and even a euphonium. He also is credited with stressing the importance of learning treble clef with trumpet fingers, as this would open up a new realm of literature. (I'm not sure he was necessarily thinking in terms of the British brass band back then) To a HS kid with just a few years under his belt, this was overwhelming. I was also trying to learn string bass and trombone. After 8 years on the BBb I bit the bullet and bought a CC and eventually sold the trusty BBb. The the following year I got the F. While I loved how these worked, and I was doing mostly orchestra, I was still very insecure with fingerings and sometimes just screwed up. Now that was about 50 years ago and I can't quite remember how all those transitions actually worked themselves out. Today, I can go from one horn to the next without any stress. BTW, I went back and got myself a BBb to keep in the "tuba barn.' I would say, the feel of each horn reminds me what key it is in and hence the fingers go into body memory mode and just do it. Okay, sometimes in something tricky I need to cool down and work on it. I suppose there is a slightly different process for everyone who has gone through this. I can see why some of my friends simply stick to BBb. I know trumpet players who only play Bb. (I know that is hard to imagine them without a suitcase full of gear, but there are some).

Something interesting: When I switched from BBb to CC (and I think the term 'switching' is a bad term - rather we 'add' to our repertory of tricks) I kept getting confused. I was trying to forget the BBb. In the process of trying to tell myself to forget and that the fingerings are one note different, in effect I kept reminding myself of the BBb fingers. Somehow it all worked out for the CC, and when I did pick up a BBb, I was lost. ( I 'thought' I had finally forgotten the BBb - not really - there is more to the story) I did manage to overpower those BBb fingers, or so I thought. But then, low and behold I found myself in a small town band, playing euphonium in bass clef. The Bb fingers came back in an instant, even at an octave transposition. Then shortly after I got an old BBb tuba and used that on the bandwagon. No problem. The BBb fingers all came back from deep in those dark recesses of memory. I do play Eb, but have always done that in treble clef in a brass band context (Thank you Mr. Bell for the trumpet fingers.) But even treble clef euphonium is no problem. The CC and F were unscathed, and because they are my two finest tubas, I work on them pretty diligently. When I was a kid, I could never have imagined that I would be able to do all this, but over time we keep accumulating all sorts of tricks, or as they say in education "skill sets." I had a psychologist friend once try to explain "compartmentalization" to me. Long story for another time. But I do think that is what eventually is happening in our minds. We learn skill sets separately and apply them to the appropriate tools.

While I am glad I am a "very seasoned player' I don't appreciate being inside an the body of an 'old geezer.' It took too dang long to learn all these tricks and now it is painful to just get out of bed in the morning. Thanks to modern chemestry we can deny things for a little while longer. For others of you who are in the 'later movements of the symphony of life', I hope you are encouraged to stay in the game. Keep amazing yourself that you can still play and even 'learn' a few more tricks. Okay, we're probably 'forgetting' some too.

Paul (who still has buckets of enthusiasm for playing and loves being around others who share in the fun) Maybery

+100
Paul you pretty much described my experiences on the journey through tubadom to a tee (tea?).
Started on Eb in 7th grade, had to use BBb in high school, then on to CC in college. Much later, like 5 or 6 years ago, picked up EEb again to be part of a Brass Band. Quite surprisingly, the Eb fingerings just "re-appeared" in my mind. Even though I only had 4 yrs on BBb in high school those fingerings seem to have taken up residence in their own little "mind room" just like the Eb. Now I'm learning F (just got one). I decided to do it after all these years partly to keep my mind active and give it a fresh challenge. Each horn, at least for me, seems to have something unique about it. EEb has british-style pistons, CC is 4 rotors, sousaphone is well...a sousaphone, F is 5 valve rotary. That helps me to put the fingerings in their own "room". Doesn't always work but...
Also like you, I studied with Mr.Torchinsky from about 1966 to 1972 and I can't get enough of playing. Just about anything, anytime, anywhere.
Thanks for your insights and always well-thought out and well-written answers.
Pete

[chronolith]

I agree with the language anology. Best way to go about it.

Some background. I came through music school as a trumpet player. Bb and C were a given for the first day of freshman year. We were expected to learn D, Eb, E (for one concerto and using the Eb slides in an F trumpet trick), F, G and A (piccolo trumpet) fingerings just to play the material in front of us. On top of that Vincent Cichowicz would then often have us ADD a transposition on top of the new fingerings just to mess with us. We came out of lessons struggling to pronounce our own names correctly. Really twisted our melons. But with a lot of mental adjustment you learn the relativity tricks required to begin to move smoothly and on towards full fluency with any set of fingerings.

Also for the record, like Doug, I have perfect pitch and could never just blithely remove the sound in my head from what the fingers were doing. Actually made it much harder for me than some others.

I see learning new fingerings as a three stage process:

1. Real-time translation from an instrument you know to one you don't...

This is the first and most painful process of learning new fingerings. Also the slowest. If you are learning CC fingerings and are used to BBb then you are literally note for note relying on your BBb knowledge to figure out each CC note as it relates to what you already know. There is a written A on the page. On my BBb that is second valve, but my CC is a full step up from BBb which means I need to lower that fingering by a full step, which is first and second... (plays note). On to the second note. Ouch.

2. Relativity

After you have suffered with the first stage for a while you learn eventually that all intervallic music is relative. I have a A major scale on the page in front of me. I do the slow translation in my mind of the first pitch on my CC tuba but then I realize that heck that's just going to be the fingerings of a G major scale on my BBb tuba, so I don't have to translate all the notes the hard way in my mind, just the first one. If you have a good handle of your scales, arpeggios, and wider intervals then you can use this system with a much greater degree of facility. All the music you will play will start as a pitch to calculate, but everything else in the phrase that follows is a relative interval to the calculation you have already done. This greatly increases your speed and efficiency.

3. Thinking in modes

This is when you are finally fully fluent as a player who can jump into the fingering modes regardless of the instrument. You get to this stage after investing the necessary time above and it is measured by the eventual reduction of fingering mistakes to a near zero figure (though it will never be zero). No alarms will sound and you won't know the exact moment it happens for you. If you have paid your dues on your fundamentals then you will be able to easily slip from one mode (BBb) to another (CC) without having to put any mental effort into it. You know when you have arrived because your fingers are just doing the right things without having to rely on any previous knowledge of fingerings from an instrument in another key. Like PaulMaybery said, you are ADDING the (new and independent) ability rather than switching.

I can also promise you that once you master your second set of fingerings, the third and fourth and beyond all come at half price of the effort it took to learn to previous set. The beauty of the relativity notion is that it does not matter if you started on a BBb or CC or Eb or Gb tuba or whatever. Eventually you will arrive at all points no matter where you started.

Transposition works in a similar way, except that you are shifting the notes on the page instead of the instrument in your lap. Just as difficult, but no more or less so.

So how to do it? Sit down and learn your BBb fingerings cold. Spend a very long time in the first 50 or so pages of the Arban's book on your BBb. Master all your scales and arpeggios in BBb. Master every interval available on the instrument you know. Do not attempt to learn a new set of fingerings easily without doing this first. If you have troubles and frustration, go back to the beginning and rebuild your foundation. Once you have built a solid foundation, then you can build on it. This is good advice outside this topic as well.

Another thing to consider: Just like languages, learning a second set of fingerings is not the most difficult operation here. Learning the FIRST set (or language) is, and you have done that already (you have, right?).

[LJLovegren]

Finally, when an ENTIRE ENSEMBLE has memorized a piece of music and made it "their own", THAT (though rarely seen today) is EXTRAORDINARILY powerful...ex: Mnozil, et al...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qUCDs93X6s
Here's Zoltan Kiss of Mnozil with Sarah Willis.
Around 17:00, he explains that he had always learned from written music.
When he joined Mnozil, he was given videos so he could learn his part.