20k+ tubas

[MikeMason]

So,what's up with that? Are some of you really making that much playing the tuba? Are they really that much better? Do your audiences/conductors really care? Am I just jealous?discuss...

[bort]

Are you upset about it?

[MikeMason]

A bit. I wonder what I may be missing.

[MikeMason]

On the other hand,an expensive tuba is one that's 20% more than mine.or the really bad sins are the ones other people do, etc. just curious what others think on the issue.

[Lee Stofer]

I think that they are tools, that's all. For those who might need a tool such as that, they are wonderful. I don't need a tool like that, as I do not have the number or quality of gigs to make such an instrument necessary or even helpful.

I think that Mr. Moore of the Atlanta Symphony has a York model Yamaha 6/4 CC, which would be the logical progression from his Holton 6/4 CC, which has received tons of use over the years. My understanding is that the list price of the Yamaha is over $40,000.00 now. But, to put that into perspective, that is also basically what a really fine bassoon costs. And, Mr. Moore told me that a violinist in the ASO demonstrated to him what a $10,000.00 bow and a $20,000.00 bow sound like, and he said that there was an immediately discernible difference - a VIOLIN BOW, folks. Pound for pound, we actually get off pretty cheaply in the musical world as tubists.

[Donn]

I'm going with the traditional car analogy. Whatever your budget, there's a car that's beyond your reach. People who buy them can argue that they're getting something for the money, but getting down to the basics, you can get around about as well in your reasonably functional heap.

[bort]

A bit. I wonder what I may be missing.

It's hard to say, and if you've never owned a $20k tuba, then I think you're not "missing" anything... as much as you would be gaining a little extra something (10%?) by spending big bucks on a new tuba.

The $20k club is really pretty exclusive. Most (all?) of the 6/4 piston tubas are up there, as well as a few smaller horns, like the Meinl Weston 2000. I'd imagine that a fair number of tubas from Hirsbrunner, Rudy Meinl, and Gronitz, and probably every Thein, can all top the $20k mark pretty easily as well. The $20k club instruments are often (not always) handmade, and even the "production" models still require and receive a huge amount of attention from senior craftsmen at the factory (you think that Jimmy down the hall is going to be assembling a 6450/2? Not going to happen.)

That said, most professional tubas are solidly in the $10k to $20k range, even the super-popular PT-6 costs only around $14k. Even the most extreme BBb I can think of (the Miraphone Siegfried) is under $18k, and I would be very surprised to find any Eb or F tuba were even over $15k. The price creep will eventually get some of these closer to $20k.

With high-end tubas, I think you truly do get what you pay for. I can hardly think of a tuba that costs more than $10k, let alone one that costs more than $15k or $20k that I see and think that the product should not cost what it costs. When I see people complain about prices (which I'm not sure you are), I ask "what SHOULD it cost?" So if a Baer shouldn't cost $25k, how much should it cost? Or if the problem is seeing a few EXTREME tubas in the midst of a bunch of normal ones... that's not a problem either.

Frankly, we should enjoy it while we can, before Uncle Bern sees this inequality and demotes the $20k tubas to $12k tubas, and promotes the $2k tubas to $10k tubas.

[bort]

Another thought:

High prices control demand. High end products take a lot of man-hours and labor to produce, and I'd bet that the high costs do not translate to high profits. The high production costs are passed on to the consumer, and there are no economies of scale to help bring down the costs. If they only made a few dozen Miraphone 186's, ever, they would be a whole lot more expensive too.

Sorry if this is all kind of rambling. I'm not sure I see the point here, except that if there is a bottom end of the new tuba price scale, then there has to be a top end too. I'd love to discuss this more, if you help me understand your side of it. I can't disagree with the fact that for almost everyone, a $20k tuba is overkill. But I do think that most of the people who don't NEED a $20k tuba would still be able to understand and comprehend why it costs so much.

Donn's car analogy is right on for that. Drive a Ford Fiesta, a Honda Accord, and a Mercedes, and still drive on the same roads and (supposed to!) go at the same speeds. However, except for the base level of "it's a car," it's really quite different.

[AndyCat]

I'm off to Yamaha in Germany next week, and am secretly hoping there might be something in this range to try, while my (off the shelf) Neo is fettled...

[Matt Walters]

Observations from working at a music store for 22 years now.
1) Bad tuba players sound like crap no matter how expensive of a tuba they try.
2) Great tuba players have an easier time sounding great by playing on better horns that have less quirks and are a better fit to them and the job they are doing.
3) Mediocre tuba players have a easier time sounding better by playing on better horns that have less quirks and are a better fit to them and the ensemble(s) they play in.
4) People will afford what they truly value. i.e. people who think spending their money on a superior tuba is a waste will instead spend extra money on nicer cars, gun collection, fishing gear, house, jewelry, or money in the bank, etc.

If you and your friends can't tell the difference between a cheaper instrument and a more expensive instrument when you play it, buy the cheaper horn and put the rest back in the bank or god forbid make a charitable donation. Don't dismiss the fact that someone else can feel and hear what you can't.

[MikeMason]

Just a topic I've been wondering about.thanks for the insights.

[Three Valves]

Anyone that owns a tuba nicer than mine is a no good greed head 2%er. Their excess and ill gotten hardware should be confiscated and distributed to less fortunate tubists like me.

Anyone that owns a tuba of lesser value, or no tuba at all for that matter, is probably a crack addled lazy no good-nik who should get off their *** and work for it like I did!!

[thevillagetuba]

Anyone that owns a tuba nicer than mine is a no good greed head 2%er. Their excess and ill gotten hardware should be confiscated and distributed to less fortunate tubists like me.

Anyone that owns a tuba of lesser value, or no tuba at all for that matter, is probably a crack addled lazy no good-nik who should get off their *** and work for it like I did!!

IMHO, a player needs a horn that is at the level that they are. That is not judged by price, but the quality of the horn. I think of those horns about $15k or $20k and up like a Ferrari (or something of the sort)--they are nice to have but won't really work in every situation and at all times, so you should only really buy them when your job allows. After all, who wants a Ferrari that they never have a chance to drive (yes, I'll take a Ferrari ).

[Dan Schultz]

I've owned several horns (not new) that could fit into the $20K+ category. My current 'Sunday' tuba is a Rudolf Meinl 5/4 BBb that was built in the early 80's. I didn't pay anything near the current new asking price for this horn... but I regard it as a tuba that is 'up there' in terms of good value.

With my budget... It's not likely I would pay $35K for a new one. However... if money was no object I would certainly consider it.

[bort]

Look at it as an investment in your future. Not the sort of "it'll be worth more later" investment, but if you buy it now, you'll never have to buy it again. Personal preferences and situations change, and that's what drives just about all tuba sales. How many people have ever bought a new tuba because the old one is just plain worn out? Remember when Ray Charles showed the Blues Brothers that there wasn't any problem with action on that old piano?

It makes me think about my wife's job, where her computer setup (tower, monitors, software, etc.) must easily cost at least $15k. All of those things last a couple of years, then need to be replaced, upgraded, and updated. A $20,000 tuba needs, what, a few hundred dollars of maintenance work per year, and probably won't need any major repairs from normal use? And think, the earlier in life you spend that $20k, the less it costs per year of use over your lifetime.

I'm not convinced that everyone needs to run out and spend $20k on a tuba. But like others have said, everyone spends their money in different places. Maybe $5k tuba people have more balanced spending habits, and maybe $20k tuba people each 10 for $1 ramen for dinner for a year and don't own a car. I don't know and don't care either way. I'm just glad that with all of the cheap alternatives, there is still a market for the real-deal stuff. To me, it's worth it.

[Rebel]

I think that they are tools, that's all. For those who might need a tool such as that, they are wonderful. I don't need a tool like that, as I do not have the number or quality of gigs to make such an instrument necessary or even helpful.

I think that Mr. Moore of the Atlanta Symphony has a York model Yamaha 6/4 CC, which would be the logical progression from his Holton 6/4 CC, which has received tons of use over the years. My understanding is that the list price of the Yamaha is over $40,000.00 now. But, to put that into perspective, that is also basically what a really fine bassoon costs. And, Mr. Moore told me that a violinist in the ASO demonstrated to him what a $10,000.00 bow and a $20,000.00 bow sound like, and he said that there was an immediately discernible difference - a VIOLIN BOW, folks. Pound for pound, we actually get off pretty cheaply in the musical world as tubists.

This said, we actually make MORE per note too, since they play more notes than we do.

[Jay Bertolet]

The more things change, the more they stay the same. I remember this same discussion when the Yorkbrunner (HB50) 6/4 CC first came out. At the time, it was initially priced at a scandalous $10,000.00! This at a time when you could buy a brand new Rudy or Alexander or even 4/4 Hirsbrunner for around $5,000.00. For the same reason you should not discount trying any horn you come across in your search for the right match for you, it seems prudent to also be willing to consider higher priced horns because you simply never know what equipment will help you the most. In the grand scheme of things, these dollar amounts are not insurmountable and what price do you put on the satisfaction of sounding like you want?

[Three Valves]

$20k tubas in the same world as children with no shoes??

No wonder the terrorists hate us!!

[chronolith]

I've always liked this post from Craig Knox on the gear issue.

But in my opinion you play the gear that makes you sound the most like the tuba in your head. You start there. If you are a amateur like myself you add to that the gear that you enjoy playing the most, and if you are a pro you add to that the gear that gives you the best edge in auditions/performance/recording. Once selected, simply remove the options you cannot afford, which is the end of the process.

[bort]

That's a really great post by Craig Knox, I hadn't seen that before... thanks!

I'm not a professional and I'll never be in that neck and neck 5% matters situation... but that doesn't mean that I won't notice it. If you are running at 95%, and can do something to get you an extra 1%... you've accounted for 20% of what was missing, and that's pretty significant. These numbers are all kind of hokey anyway, since you can't actually quantify this stuff, but the concept is there.

It's like eating french fries without enough salt on them. They're fine, and maybe even really good. But they're BETTER with just a little more salt. And $20,000 french fries taste amazing! (What are we even talking about anymore!)