Beautiful sound

[besson900]

First was O.Baadsvik,next i heared Tim Buzbee and his piece for 3 tubas but know when I,m older i think the most beautiful soundtrack have Gene Pokorny(You have to listen Bluebells of Scotland played on CC tuba by Pokorny)

[besson900]

I think that Oystein have unpractical sound of u re not soloist.I cannot imagine this kind of playing in orchestra

[bort]

I think that Oystein have unpractical sound of u re not soloist.I cannot imagine this kind of playing in orchestra

But he wouldn't play that way in the back row of an orchestra. Tools, sounds, etc. all change based on need/use.

[roweenie]

People tend to "snapshot" other people based on seeing them doing one type of activity (or playing music in one type of venue)

Unfortunately quite true

[PaulMaybery]

... When a player sounds crummy, it's the player. When the player sounds great, it's the horn.
And folks want to know what it is. Just sayin'...

[Rick Denney]

Now that this necro-thread has been revived, I want to post something for Jay Bertolet: Play for your students, at least a little bit. It is very difficult for a tuba player to learn what good players produce up close by listening to them in the hall. I discovered that what sounds thrilling in the hall may not be as pretty up close. There is precisely zero probability of me ever sounding like Mike Sanders, but listening to him up close, after having listened to him in the hall, opened my eyes and created mental image that I would never have attained any other way.

I actually think it's a bit glib for us to say we should create our own most beautiful sound. Well, of course. But I am reminded of playing in a quintet I had put together back in the deeps of time. We were playing a Canadian Brass arrangement, and I mentioned to the group of similar amateurs that the CB had closed the piece a certain way and we should, too. One of the trumpet players said we should create our own interpretation. I'm thinking (and saying), Sure. But only when we can (at least approximately) duplicate the authoritative performance. Before one can shine light into the darkness, one must have journeyed all the way to the edge of the light.

I've heard many tuba players in live performance. In an orchestral setting, I've not heard enough samples of very many to be able to offer anything definitive. I heard Arnold Jacobs once in the CSO, while on tour, on an occasion when the orchestra started two hours late because their instrument truck had crashed in west Texas, ruining a lot of instruments. This was only a couple of years before he retired. He sounded superb on Mahler 5, but the sound I really remember from that performance was Bud Herseth. I look for a sound that is rich and colorful, inviting, and alive. How does that sound? How much of that can be measured with spectral analysis and how much is phrasing and musicality? Beats me. I'll need another 40 years to ponder it; the first 40-plus have left me somewhat confused on what really makes it happen.

But I know what other orchestral tuba players of my acquaintance say about who makes the sound they admire--at least when they said it to me, which was decades ago (and thus leaves out the many great players who have emerged in recent decades). Chester Schmitz and Floyd Cooley got mentioned a lot, as did Tommy Johnson.

Most of the performances I've admired in recent years have been in chamber or solo settings, not in orchestra. That list would be too long and too varied to provide any use. One does stand out, and that is Demondrae Thurmond on euphonium. He has a sound that commands the stage, rather than being merely beautiful.

Rick "still chasing that sound" Denney

[Jay Bertolet]

I always enjoy your posts Rick! For someone who claims to be an amateur, your mental understanding of what we do rivals many players I respect. I sincerely hope that you keep posting comments for a very long time. I think everyone learns from them and more knowledge is never going to be a bad thing.

All platitudes aside, I'm still going to respectfully disagree with you on the idea of imprinting students with your sound. Granted, I cannot argue with your logic in how younger players develop their sound concepts by listening to other players. I think this is inevitable. However, my goal has always been to encourage the student to seek out what their ears tell them they should and find their own voice. They make the choice. I encourage my students to attend concerts (my own included) and to take lessons with as many great players as they can. All of this in an attempt to broaden their knowledge base as wide as possible, thereby giving them as much probability of obtaining the specific set of ideas that will lead them to success. But presenting my sound as some sort of example? I don't think I'd ever be comfortable with that. I think I play with a very good sound but I remember very well the processes I went through to get to that point. While I think listening to other players gives ideas, I always felt the real progress was made in a dark room, playing notes by myself and really listening to the results and discovering what was possible. In later years I added the production fundamentals I had learned to that equation and focused on making that sound in a way that was consistent and not harmful to my embouchure and was sustainable for many decades.

Ironically, I had this very conversation recently with one of my students after he had taken a lesson with another well known player. He remarked to me that this player had some trouble describing to my student what he wanted because the teacher had not brought a horn to demonstrate with and he was used to doing that when teaching. My student commented that not illustrating by example meant that I was far better at verbally describing what I wanted during our lessons and that made it easier for the student to understand. A little light went off in my head and I began to wonder if the mental gymnastics required to teach that way also had a side effect of helping the player better understand and coordinate concepts and fundamentals. It made we wonder if students having a teacher demonstrate more often than not were left with the question of "Wow, that's great, how do you actually do that?". This was an experience I sometimes had during my earlier days and I found myself having to do the searching for those answers rather than having them taught to me by another. Remember, during that time it was all the rage to say "Paralysis by analysis" as an argument for not thinking too much about how we play.

I probably overstate this position a bit stronger than it turns out in practice. I occasionally practice at the schools I teach at on lesson days and the crowds that gather around the door are noticeable. My playing is no secret to my students, it seems. However, I feel better knowing that I allow them the freedom and integrity to seek their own voice and make them confident in that search and, thereby, enriching the overall musical community with new ideas and approaches rather than just adding more players with my own sensibilities.

As always, find the teacher that works best for you. There really is no substitute.

[PaulMaybery]

Funny, some of the "old school" was quite different 50 years back. I recall very clearly on my first lesson with Abe Torchinsky in the basement of the Academy of Music in Philadelphia, at about 9:00AM on a Saturday in mid winter of 1964.
I will paraphrase Abe to my best recollection. "You chose to come and study with me, and I will teach you how to play the like me. If you care to play like someone else, go study with them." He was rather blunt in that regard.
He always welcomed questions, and I called him often at home between lessons. In those years, you might say he was a bit intolerant of other points of view, especially from "runny nose students." However, he rarely demonstrated, albiet a few notes here and there. But I did get to hear him plenty in the Orchestra. He was my first "high profile" teacher and he did give me a good foundation. There were many others who came along and broadened my scope and I suppose my playing and sound is a synthesis of many of them. Those days I recall him telling me that he spent most of his time perfecting excerpts and so never felt he had the luxury of time to be a flashy soloist. But he did what he did very well. Today, there are many well schooled players who are fabulous soloists, play jazz, advante gard techniques, and still hold prestigious orchestra chairs. But times are different and tuba playing is not quite the "blue collar" occupation that it once was. The models we have to listen to are awesome and varied. Young players have found their individual voices and niches in which to grow and become household words. (well at least in some of our homes.) Jay has struck on a good point it trying to allow a student to grow into their own voice. They will listen to others and emulate something. I find this works at the more advanced level. For very young beginners I feel it a responsibility to set the bar for them in early lessons and so I actually demonstrate quite a bit. In some educational philosophies, language (also music) is learned first by imitation and then eventually reading and then interpretation of other's ideas. Once they begin to mature, its time for the "birds and bees" and the rite of passage into an adult musician.

Paul (I always enjoy reading Rick and Jay's comments and still learn quite a bit and am challenged to think outside my own little box.) Maybery

[PaulMaybery]

"Also sprach Zarathustra"

[Jay Bertolet]

It's ironic Paul that you would mention Abe Torchinsky. He was one of my primary teachers and my experience with him was very similar to your own. Also, he was the first teacher to introduce me to the idea that how you sounded up close had almost no bearing on how you sounded in the context of the ensemble (a lesson I always pass on to my students). In fact, it was plainly obvious to me that it was actually an advantage to sound harsh up close (something he clearly did and something I aspired to when on my smaller equipment) because it meant that my sound was having a lot of projection. Such a focused and centered sound was not particularly pleasant to listen to up close but when I listened to the recordings Torchinsky did with Philadelphia, the transformation of his sound was unreal. I always wondered if this was why he never did much solo playing. That old King CC he had could sure put out the decibels when in the right hands!

[PaulMaybery]

After he retired I heard him (Abe) do the Lebedev "Concerto" at the Nels Vogel Band Clinic in Morehead, MN. What an incredible sound. Very rich and at times almost like a cello. But it was a heavier and darker sound than the younger players. He took a few solos on that old "Torchy Jones - Catch the Brass Ring" album. It was a sound similar to Bill Bell. I rather like his Hindemith with Glenn Gould, but it did get some unfair criticism from the young hotshots. But I have never heard anyone today with that type of sound. I can't say that it was equipment as folks like Bill Bell played on anything that was available: Eb Sousaphones, Huge 6/4 BBb Martins, and of course his CC King and always had "that sound." In the Philly Orchestra much of Abe's sound was a result of the extra tight ensemble he had with Bob Harper on Bass Trombone. When they played together it was like one instrument with an "other-world" sound. There was a sweet spot in the top balcony "peanut gallery" at the old Academy of Music. It was on the violin side of the orchestra and I would look diagonally at the low brass on the opposite side. You could hear the breaths, and the sound circulated from the ceiling and the curved wall behind me. It seemed like when they made an entrance that the viola section was pushed several feet forward on the stage. It was that powerful, yet never batty. Ormandy insisted on a type of veil over the brass sound. Very full, but never edgy. Very unlike New York, Cleveland and Chicago. To many of the younger players, they felt this type of playing was rather dated and of course not as heroic sounding as their egos wished it to be. Eventually things have changed, Chicago became the paradign and to my ears at least, most American brass sections sound pretty much the same. Damn good, but not distinctive by orchestra any more. Perhaps much of that has to do with so many visiting conductors who never get to put their stamp on the orchestra's sound.

[PaulMaybery]

Right on. I see much more 'team work' these days. There also seems not to be the hostility between conductors and musicians that seemed to generate much of that unescessary aggressiveness. But the balls are there when it needs it. Maybe more brass players are 'in therapy' these days dealing with "anger management." An old friend who will remain anonymous, as well as his NYC orchestra, (this was 1960s & 70s) was filling me in on his method of dealing with NYC stress. He used his anger as an adrenaline edge in his own favor and so chose to 'fight' from his chair as principal horn rather than be intimidated into 'flight.' His idea metaphorically was to anililate anything that got in his way. Nasty, but for him it worked for his 17 year tenure as few would dare to mess with him. He did have an edgy sound at times. (Old School Psychology)

[elihellsten]

Some people are taking this thread way too seriously in my opinion... what's wrong with having a role model? I've always enjoyed listening to Michael Lind. I do not sound like Michael Lind, but I enjoy his music making and his sound is an inspiration for me.