Let's talk about Kanstul tubas

[bort]

I know very little about Kanstul tubas, apart from which models exist, and a very small amount of information about how they play. I've seen exactly one Kanstul in person in recent memory -- out east, I've found them to be virtually non-existent. In fact, there's not much chatter about them here either.

I'm interested to learn more, because, well, there are so few American companies that make tubas anymore, it seems like something I should know.

I'm curious how they compare to other similar European horns in terms of:
-- build quality/consistency
-- playing characteristics
-- overall value for the money

I'm particularly interested in the 4/4 York-style and 5/4 Grand model CC tubas. Yeah, it's all subjective, I know that. But I'd like to hear some opinions. I've almost never seen any of these, and certainly haven't tried any of them.

And no, I'm not looking to go sell my Willson and buy a Kanstul. I'm just asking for fun and to try and learn something here.

Now, if Kanstul could make a *rotary* tuba, THEN I would be looking to sell my Willson and buy one. It doesn't seem like that will ever happen though...

Thanks for the insight!

[k001k47]

I only played them in an elephant room, but the Grand CC and small F are awesome tubas. Easy to resonate on like the MW 5450, but less synth-like in that the sound felt more "alive". The 5th valve was consistently slow, but then again, so are a lot of showroom floor tubas, so I won't attribute it to the "unique" valve design; then again, that unique 5th is probably what makes them blow so great. Wish I could comment on the pitch tendancies, but I really can't recall. . .

[Cthuba]

I too remember playing a 4/4 Kanstul in the elephant room and remembering that the bell of the tuba resonated ALOT. I liked it. it was about 2 years ago that I went and when Baltimore brass had this amazing rusk cut 4/4 york. I went back and forth between the two horns and couldn't get over how both resonated similarly.

FWIW

[opus37]

I've played a Kanstul 66T for five years. I purchased it on Lee Stofer's recommendation. I play in church groups and with concert bands. It has a nice rich organ like sound. It has enough volume to support a 30 piece orchestra (which I play with each Christmas). I have had no mechanical problems with my horn. I practice or perform with it on an average of 6 days a week over the 5 years. Since I live in the Twin Cities area, you are welcome to come by and try it when you have time.

Brian

[bort]

Are they sponsors? How DARE you enquire about non-sponsor wares?

They are clearly NOT sponsors, because I don't know every last detail about every last thing, nor do I know that they are the most awesomely spectacular instruments available "for the money."

Brian, I'll take you up on that offer sometime, but maybe not until after the semester is over. I'd love to just meet in general, but of course, would like to try the Kanstul as well.

[opus37]

Are they sponsors? How DARE you enquire about non-sponsor wares?

The following manufacturers are not sponsors:
Olds
Bach
Cerveny
York
Conn
Miraphone
King
Getsen
Meinl Weston
Yamaha
Jupiter
and a host of others. (Yes, I know some of these are no longer in existence) Yet we post about them. Their local sellers are sponsors just like local sellers of Kanstul are sponsors. That is why I DARE to talk about Kanstul or any other brand of tuba, trombone, euphonium or even french horn.

[Ferguson]

I owned a Kanstul model 90 front piston 4/4 CC tuba for a few years. It was an outstanding player, and I preferred it to my Hirsbrunner HB2P for a while. It had a similar tone to the HB, but spoke with a lighter touch and felt more malleable.

The Kanstul 4/4 tubas have a smaller bore than their German counterparts, so some of the low notes felt like I had to spit them a bit more, like when playing an Eb tuba. But it sounded great all around, with no more slide pulling than the HB needed. It was centered and nimble and easy to sound good on, esp. the low G.

My Kanstul had the bell to bottom bow ring soldered on backwards. It had some spinning marks on the bell. It was a beautiful tuba, but was a little bit ghetto in a few aspects. Fifth valve linkage comes to mind. Kanstul tubas in general don't have much nickel trim on them, just yellow brass and gold brass, so it's a different look. Mine was silver plated, partly for looks, partly for liveliness, so I skipped that conversation. Holding and moving the first slide was a bit awkward on the 90. I had to reach through the tuba and grab the inside tube of the slide. Greasy. I thought about some handle or ring but couldn't figure the best place to put it. The first slide also needed a string to prevent it from falling out when the tuba was stored on its bell.

I once sold a Kanstul 66S EB tuba, but with a custom smaller 17" bell. It went to a player wanting a good pit orchestra horn and he was pretty happy with it. The 66S is probably the most pitchy of the Kanstul tubas, but it's very playable too, you just gotta move slides. I like it even more than a Besson 983. Their top action models, both Eb and BBb, are smaller bore than the front action models, and they're really easy to play. They remind me of a MW 2011 HoJo, but lighter and a little more open down low. You still have to spit through them a little, like an old Conn/York/etc.

The front action BBb models, both 4/4 and 5/4 are big and slow to me. Guys who like big BBb tubas seem to like them. The 5490 5/4 CC is very similar to a PT6-P, though it's not a copy, just visually similar. They started that (and some other) tuba projects using stock parts from their marching brass, but I think as they developed these, they ended up making custom bows and bells for all their new concert tubas. They're a pretty small shop, so they mostly make them one at a time to order. I'd like to play a new 5490 again.

The small Kanstul model 80 F wasn't well in tune with itself when I played a bunch of early models. The low C was excellent though. I believe they have improved it since then. The big 5480 F looks to me like its missing a piece, since the top bow and bell don't touch. LA/OC players Beth Mitchell and John Van Houghton would be up on the details of any improvements. Mike Roylance, Lee Stofer, Robert Carpenter, and Tom Treece were (are) involved in testing and development and would have favorite models of these.

-F

[Ferguson]

A Google image search turned up this interesting photo of a Kanstul tuba. The bottom bow is at upper right, and you can see the seam where they joined the edges of the sheet brass. Yes, the large bows on these Kanstuls are sheet brass like you'd see on some of the top Euro tubas. It's not the full hand hammered "handmade" 2-piece bows of a 6450/2, but in that direction. Most tuba bows are made from tubes that are bent and hydro-formed, and they tend to be heavier than these sheet brass bows.

-F

[chhite]

Back in 2012, I spent a few months with a 5490 CC and I found it to be very easy to play and the sound was head-turning. I do wish I could have purchased that horn, but Leonard Byrne of the Spokane Symphony owns it. I haven't played many horns that make me consider selling my Rudi, but this one did. I, too, would like to play one of the newer versions. I never had a moment's trouble with the pistons or the rotor. Maybe this one had been played and serviced enough to keep it in top shape.

While at Ft. Lewis, I had a 90 CC and an 80 F. The 90 was super dependable and predictable, and worked in every group I needed it. The 80's pitch was sketchy but had a great sound. And it put out a lot of sound for its petite size. I would also like to see how Zig has worked on that model to improve it.

[ColeGAnderson]

I recently had the great fortune to get a factory tour when I was in California. I would really recomend going it is cool to see all their equipment and they are more than willing to show you around. I got to play the Grand CC and BBb as well as the the 3/4 F.
The Grand 5/4 tubas produced a massive sound and could easily fill the factory, it was a little slow moving around the range but i guess that's normal coming from a 4/4. The F was very fun to play and it could easily produce a beautiful tone. They were all made with wonderful craftsmanship and felt very solid. I think if I ever get an F tuba it will be one of the Kanstul tubas. Hope that helps!

And I also found the 5th rotor sticky but it was a brand new horn.

[Lee Stofer]

Over the past 10 years, Kanstul has done a lot of tuba development work, mostly aimed at re-creating the essence of the Grand Rapids York in a modern instrument. As a result, the model 33-T and 66-T (top-action BBb and Eb) are basically your opportunity to buy a brand-new York standard BBb or monster Eb tuba. In the same time period, they rather quickly developed the model 90 CC, which shares a number of parts with the BBb and Eb. Like the 33 and 66, the model 90 is a very in-tune and responsive instrument that will fill the hall with beautiful sound. The 33-S and 66-S are front-valve versions of the BBb and Eb, and have a slightly larger bore.

The Grand series was born out of a request for a larger BBb for brass band, and the Grand CC followed soon thereafter. Sporting a York-metal bell, .50" bore pistons and a 5th rotor, these were the first American-made 5-valve 5/4 tubas. When properly shop-adjusted and prepped (including lapping the too-tight 5th rotor and detailing out the 5th linkage), these tubas will do anything the European counterparts will, while producing a uniquely American sound. I have only played the first prototypes of the Grand F, and will say that it is not my cup of tea, at least not yet. My pick for a really good and affordable F-tuba is the model 80. About the size of the old Olds 3/4 BBb, the model 80 was originally released with a stress defect in the body, which a repairman can eliminate in 30 minutes or less without burning the lacquer (Kanstul's baked-on epoxy finish is really good and durable). Once the stress is released, the intonation and response are fixed, and it is a very fun-to-play instrument. I cut the 1st slide about 3/8" on mine and added a 1st pull ring, and found that I could play very well in tune throughout the range with only one 1st slide adjustment of approx. 1/2". The low C range down to pedal F (and beyond) is really effortless and clear-sounding, and the rest of the instrument has a beautiful sound that I would call the definitive American F-tuba sound. It is just what I would want to use in an orchestra, small wind ensemble and particularly for solo works. Oh, my, this would be so much easier to play a recital on than the German F-tubas I've owned in the past.

I have mentioned in the past that customers vote with their money, as to which instruments and how large a variety of instruments are available. Due to the demand from the Banda community and others, sousaphone prices have gone up, particularly for Kings and Conn 14K's. Kanstul is apparently manufacturing and selling large volumes of instruments overseas, particularly in China. Sales manager Jack Kanstul told me last week that they are working at capaticy, and looking to hire more workers to keep up with the demand. China is voting with their money for Kanstul, and they are getting Kanstuls. I understand the reality of a bad economy, but we are mostly voting for the cheapest instruments we can get, so we are getting what we are voting for. If you decide that you want a Kanstul I can get one for you, but it might take 2-3 months.

[Tubaman4]

Beautiful write up Lee, how would you compare the 33-s and the 90-s? I hear people say the 33-s is slower than the 90-s? I'm interested in buying this 4/4 model but i don't know which to get.

[Cthuba]

Over the past 10 years, Kanstul has done a lot of tuba development work, mostly aimed at re-creating the essence of the Grand Rapids York in a modern instrument. As a result, the model 33-T and 66-T (top-action BBb and Eb) are basically your opportunity to buy a brand-new York standard BBb or monster Eb tuba. In the same time period, they rather quickly developed the model 90 CC, which shares a number of parts with the BBb and Eb. Like the 33 and 66, the model 90 is a very in-tune and responsive instrument that will fill the hall with beautiful sound. The 33-S and 66-S are front-valve versions of the BBb and Eb, and have a slightly larger bore.

The Grand series was born out of a request for a larger BBb for brass band, and the Grand CC followed soon thereafter. Sporting a York-metal bell, .50" bore pistons and a 5th rotor, these were the first American-made 5-valve 5/4 tubas. When properly shop-adjusted and prepped (including lapping the too-tight 5th rotor and detailing out the 5th linkage), these tubas will do anything the European counterparts will, while producing a uniquely American sound. I have only played the first prototypes of the Grand F, and will say that it is not my cup of tea, at least not yet. My pick for a really good and affordable F-tuba is the model 80. About the size of the old Olds 3/4 BBb, the model 80 was originally released with a stress defect in the body, which a repairman can eliminate in 30 minutes or less without burning the lacquer (Kanstul's baked-on epoxy finish is really good and durable). Once the stress is released, the intonation and response are fixed, and it is a very fun-to-play instrument. I cut the 1st slide about 3/8" on mine and added a 1st pull ring, and found that I could play very well in tune throughout the range with only one 1st slide adjustment of approx. 1/2". The low C range down to pedal F (and beyond) is really effortless and clear-sounding, and the rest of the instrument has a beautiful sound that I would call the definitive American F-tuba sound. It is just what I would want to use in an orchestra, small wind ensemble and particularly for solo works. Oh, my, this would be so much easier to play a recital on than the German F-tubas I've owned in the past.

I have mentioned in the past that customers vote with their money, as to which instruments and how large a variety of instruments are available. Due to the demand from the Banda community and others, sousaphone prices have gone up, particularly for Kings and Conn 14K's. Kanstul is apparently manufacturing and selling large volumes of instruments overseas, particularly in China. Sales manager Jack Kanstul told me last week that they are working at capaticy, and looking to hire more workers to keep up with the demand. China is voting with their money for Kanstul, and they are getting Kanstuls. I understand the reality of a bad economy, but we are mostly voting for the cheapest instruments we can get, so we are getting what we are voting for. If you decide that you want a Kanstul I can get one for you, but it might take 2-3 months.

I'm not sure if I entirely agree with that statement. Look at what Conn did to Matt Walter's Prototype design and I distinctly remember people having a hatred for the consistency of the PT-6P.

While these Chinese instruments are indeed cheap, you can not dispute the fact that they have made advances or dare I say improvements over the previous instruments mentioned.

EDIT: A few professional musicians in large orchestras have sold their NAME BRAND GERMAN instruments for a Chinese clone.

While the money is indeed voting for affordability, I think it is also voting for IMPROVEMENTS and CONSISTENCY.
[/rant]

I remember playing the Kanstul 90 and thoroughly enjoying it's resonance and overall feel. I do like these tubas.

[Cthuba]

Well by numerous I can truly only think of two-ish. I should retract that previous statement. But there is a fellow on tubenet that just sold a very high end Mienl-Weston and is now seeking an Eastman or a Wisemann.

My apologies.

[Donn]

Kanstul is apparently manufacturing and selling large volumes of instruments overseas, particularly in China.

Just a semantic fine point, the above seems to be saying that the manufacturing occurs overseas, though I'm pretty sure you mean only that they're selling them overseas. As in
"Kanstul is apparently manufacturing large volumes of instruments and selling them them overseas, particularly in China." Which by the way is pretty darned amazing.

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I went to the factory in April when I was playing in L.A. My overall impression is that they are amazing instruments. I think they don't get the tuba numbers because they are really bad at advertising, and are not very interested in giving horns to people for free. And L.A. certainly has a number of players who are getting free instruments from certain manufacturers. I also know that they sell lots of marching instruments. I thought that their valves were incredible. I was playing a BBb tuba on the road so that's where my 'tuba ears' were at that point. I played the big BBb, it lined up amazingly well on the tuner, except the 'G' first line, but a pull fixed that. The smaller BBb was great too. I liked the CC's and I thought they were really great on the tuner also. My favorite horn was their travel tuba. The bell unscrews and the entire instrument fits into a suitcase. It's a bit bigger than a Yamaha 621 and responds and sounds amazing, both the CC and BBb, although they had kind of cobbled the BBb prototype together so I could play it, they were both fantastic. I don't own one only because as I'm slowing down my road career, I'm not sure what equipment I will need for my 'less road' career, but when I figure that out, I'm going to return to the Kanstul factory and choose accordingly.

[pecktime]

Is the CC travel tuba on the website? I can't seem to find it.

[ArnoldGottlieb]

http://bethmitchelltubastudio.com/BethM ... _TUBA.html" target="_blank

[bisontuba]

BTW, Dillon Music has a used Kanstul silver plated BBb 33 and Eb 66-S tuba for sale, and just listed a used lacquer Kanstul 80-S F tuba for sale.....FYI....
Mark

[thevillagetuba]

BTW, Dillon Music has a used Kanstul silver plated BBb 33 and Eb 66-S tuba for sale, and just listed a used lacquer Kanstul 80-S F tuba for sale.....FYI....
Mark

Came across this video of Beth Mitchell on an 80-S on YouTube earlier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWKbnCnArFU" target="_blank