Thieving Magpie / Gazza Ladra

[Three Valves]

Love Rossini,

I thought he predated tuba.

Most of the recordings I've heard were for orchestra and not the full operas.

Looks like a doable part for me, key signature not withstanding...

[windshieldbug]

I've only ever played the overture, so I don't know about the actual opera.

[Aglenntuba]

I don't really have any solid info, but snooping through IMSLP makes me think it was first added in the edition by Kogel sometime around 1917? I don't see it in the original score, though.

[Slamson]

According to Michael Steinberg of the San Francisco Symphony, there was a "German" edition of the overture created later, using, as he calls it, "a much more robust brass section." The "Italian" version uses three trombones only. The rest of the score for the opera doesn't call for tuba, so I doubt Rossini roped some Ophicleide player (this was 1817, after all) to show and play the overture and then leave (unless they had a strong union at La Scala back then) - and then there's the ULTIMATE authority - the Kalmus score in our library, that shows only 'bones.

I haven't found out when the German edition came out, but at least San Francisco didn't play it until 1924. Judging from the printing characteristics of the part, it looks like 1870s.

[Frank Byrne]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNAiX13YZEw

Tuba included here, so if it's good enough for the CSO, I'd go for it.

[Ace]

Cimbasso.

Ace

[seanvolution]

I was once auditioning for a local orchestra, and when the sight-reading section of the audition came up, the music director (from behind the curtain) called for "La Gazza Ladra." I whispered in surprise to the proctor, "There is no tuba in La Gazza Ladra!" To my embarrassment, she started digging through the folder and produced a tuba part of "La Gazza Ladra." Needless to say, I was truly sight reading.

[imperialbari]

I only have played the overture in a brass band back in 1970. The key of that version is F minor, which lies well for a single valve bass trombone.

At that time I took a look at the score of the original version. As far as I remember, Rossini only used one single trombone, which is reflected in this video:

http://youtu.be/vNAiX13YZEw

I didn’t wonder about seeing Mr. Kleinhammer doing the trombone part, but I was highly surprised by seeing his left hand neighbour. This must be one of the rare orchestral occasions, where there was only one chair between Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Herseth.

Klaus

[UDELBR]

I'd heard from several prominent European conductors that these "German versions" were made merely to avoid copyright rules of the day. They presented themselves as "new versions", so didn't have to pay royalties, etc. Makes sense, and I've heard it from enough independent sources that it seems credible to me.

[Three Valves]

I'd heard from several prominent European conductors that these "German versions" were made merely to avoid copyright rules of the day. They presented themselves as "new versions", so didn't have to pay royalties, etc. Makes sense, and I've heard it from enough independent sources that it seems credible to me.

Die Diebische Elster, indeed eh??

[gionvil]

Sorry to say that, but thinking of listening to La Gazza Ladra (or any other work by Rossini) with a full section of trombones and tuba ( or cimbasso) makes me shudder. Ok, maybe it's just that I am italian..

[PaulMaybery]

Many of the seasoned players here probably have already deduced that there are many vagaries/ambiguities surrounding Rossini and his music.
I doubt that Rossini, given his own personal nature 'could' care, and given his present physical condition 'could not care.' It is even imaginable that the overture is not even originally conncected to the opera. I've seen the MS to the opera and the first act begins with an "Introduzione." (No Overture) Other instances: The Barber of Seville uses a previous overture to one of his unsuccessful operas "Elizabeth Regina d'Angleterre" The "Gazza" ms opera score brasswise calls for horns and trumpets. Subsequent editions and performances usually necessitate revising the editing and expanding the consist of the orchestration. There were also national house issues with various publishers often times renaming parts to suit newer instrument terminologies that were finding their way into the orchestras.

Example: Verdi - the term trombone basso, trombone grande, tuba, cimbasso can be found in certain scores all on the same 4th (trombone) part. The scores to the overtures even more so where they were edited and presented to be performed as concert works in countries other than Italy.

The German publishers of Berlioz's works substitute Tuba for Ophicleide. Other issues with early Wagner where he was using Serpent and ophicleide. In Bellini we see the term Bombardon and latter in the same work, Cimbasso. Sometimes tuba.

So there is question as to what did the composer actually want. Was he specific as with the case of Verdi where he wanted a contrabass trombone sound rather than the tuba, or did the composer just accept what was standard fare in a given pit orchestra? Then there is the chronology and the evolution of brass instruments which brings more information to the discussion. The early half of the 19th century was really a time of instrumental development and hence a time of flux in what was being used and or written for.

I suppose then, that one needs to decide what format to adopt for a performance and go with it. More than likely, any choice that would be made today, already has precedence
and was used. Its hard to imagine that there is much new.

Even though the 'modern' cimbasso was not around at the time La Gazza was written, it was probably brought in by an Italian orchestra in a concert performance of the overture later in the century. In a full concert orchestra in Italy, it would seem appropriate to use the "modern" cimbasso, but it might also be likely that a concert/symphony orchestra was not on board with the cimbasso, considering that it was an opera instrument, and why drag it on stage just to play an overture. Today, I think, like Bloke mentioned, it is good to bring a bunch of tools to the job and give the MD something special.

Paul (who has learned from history, that we can not really freeze a moment in time and space and say "that's the way it was.") Maybery

[MusikFind]

Rossini Foundation Library is part of the Italian Digital Library, Istituto Centrale del Catalogo Unico (ICCU) http://www.internetculturale.it" target="_blank

The critical edition of Rossini’s works is a monumental undertaking that began in 1971. After years of intense study and in-depth research, the first volume dedicated to La gazza ladra was published in 1979.

Vol 21 complete opera
LA GAZZA LADRA
a cura di Alberto Zedda
due volumi di Partitura di XLIX-1197 pp. e un volume di Commento Critico di 220 pp.
Pub. Rossini Foundation / Ricordi/ Boosey. Score HL $277.00
Parts on rental. [no tuba type instument]

The Overture:
La gazza ladra (The Thieving Magpie): Overture <1817>10'
2[1.pic] 2 2 2 — 4 2 1 0 — tmp+4 — str
perc: bd, tri, 2sd
Pub. Ricordi critical edition by Alberto Zedda, 1979; parts rental
Pub. Kalmus ed. Clark McAlister. Score and Parts for sale.

La gazza ladra (The Thieving Magpie): Overture (arr.
Kogel) <1817> 10'
2[1.pic] 2 2 2 — 4 2 3 1 — tmp+3 — str
perc: bd, sd, tri
Ed. & arr. Gustav Kogel. This arrangement, which is not recommended, is sometimes referred to as "the German edition." It calls for extra brass not found in the original, and contains an extra 120 bars of music as well.
Pub. Breitkopf, Reprint Kalmus. Score and parts for sale.

[UDELBR]

So there is question as to what did the composer actually want. Was he specific as with the case of Verdi where he wanted a contrabass trombone sound rather than the tuba, or did the composer just accept what was standard fare in a given pit orchestra?

This, in Verdi's own words:

Genoa 24 December 1871

"... I still insist on the 4th trombone. That bombardon is impossible. Tell Faccio and, if you wish, consult the 1st trombonist as well to see what should be done. I would like a bass trombone from the same family as the others, but if it is too tiring or too difficult to play, get one of the usual ophicleides that go to low B. In other words, do whatever you want, but not that devil of a bombardon that does not blend with the others."

[DonShirer]

The IMSLP music library has a two-act handwritten score and a three-act printed score, neither of which has a tuba or cimbasso part as far as my limited knowledge of Italian goes. Both have one trombone staff.

There are also multiple versions of the overture, one with only the single trombone staff, and one with trombone I and II on one staff and trombone III/tuba on another. I didn't bother looking further, but it appears that the tuba (as well as the additional trombones) was a later addition.

[Bob Kolada]

So there is question as to what did the composer actually want. Was he specific as with the case of Verdi where he wanted a contrabass trombone sound rather than the tuba, or did the composer just accept what was standard fare in a given pit orchestra?

This, in Verdi's own words:

Genoa 24 December 1871

"... I still insist on the 4th trombone. That bombardon is impossible. Tell Faccio and, if you wish, consult the 1st trombonist as well to see what should be done. I would like a bass trombone from the same family as the others, but if it is too tiring or too difficult to play, get one of the usual ophicleides that go to low B. In other words, do whatever you want, but not that devil of a bombardon that does not blend with the others."

-swoon-

[jeopardymaster]

Played it last year, together with the Fanfare to la Peri. (Everything else on that concert was sans tuba.) I had a long drive to another gig ahead of me after the concert and was looking forward to leaving right after the opening, but La Gazza Ladra opened the second half, and at the last minute they threw the German edition at me. To my ear the tuba part is redundant and out of character, and I would have welcomed getting on the road an hour earlier than I ultimately did, but I'm grateful to be playing anywhere. Ich grolle nicht.