Converting a tuba

[ndh3425]

I have a beater BBb tuba that i want to convert to CC. How would i go about this. i am new in the tubenet world so i dont know who to go to. Any comments left are very helpful. Thanks in advance.

[Rick Denney]

I have a beater BBb tuba that i want to convert to CC. How would i go about this. i am new in the tubenet world so i dont know who to go to. Any comments left are very helpful. Thanks in advance.

There are three potential reasons to convert a Bb tuba to C:

1. You just want to enjoy the challenge of hacksawing an otherwise unusable tuba just to see what can be done. In that case, what Joe said is what you need to know: Find a place to remove two feet of tubing from the main bugle, without creating a taper profile that ruins the scale of the instrument. And then the somewhat easier task of shortening each valve branch. If you go in with the sufficiently low expectations of the outcome, this can be a fun project. You'll discover why conversions are expensive and risky, and you'll develop a new appreciation for those who do it well.

2. You know C tuba fingerings but can't afford a good C tuba. But you happen to own a decent Bb tuba. If that's the case, you'll have an uphill battle. Paying someone to convert a tuba properly is not cheap, and by the time you do so, you could probably have found a suitable C tuba for the same or less. Another strategy is to just learn (or relearn) Bb fingerings. It's possible that a good Bb tuba can become a good C tuba, but it's also possible that a good Bb tuba will become a poor C tuba. It is not possible, however, to make a poor Bb tuba into a good C tuba.

3. The instrument is really worthwhile, but not particularly useful as a Bb tuba and is going to have to be reconstructed anyway. This is probably the best reason to do so. An example is a beat up old top-action three-valve monster tuba, where with front-action valves and pitched in C would be worth much more. A decade ago, the going cost of a conversion was $1000 (at wholesale) for an overhaul (not including reassembly and finishing, but just removing dents from the parts), $2000 for the conversion, $1000 for an additional valve, $2000 for reassembly and finishing. That $6000 added to whatever you spent for the carcass. I bet it would be much more now, simply because those who were doing it aren't really interested in doing so any more.

Most of the time, you can find a suitable C tuba for less than what a conversion costs, especially with the Chinese tubas now on the market. There was a time when grand orchestral tubas weren't being made by anybody except Hirsbrunner, and it was cost-effective to convert an old Holton or York simply because there were no other options below the Hirsbrunner price point. That is no longer the case; there are many tubas of that type, new and used, at various price points. There really isn't much reason any more to convert Bb tubas into C tubas.

Rick "who has explored Item 1 in the past, but starting with a junker and doing it just for fun" Denney

[TubaJacob]

My plan is to do this. I want a custom 5/4 tuba and so I am going to make one!

[PaulMaybery]

I faced this dilema when I was given an old beat up York BBb (master model) and dreamt of doing the conversion to it. The poor horn had so much tight wrap of the internal branches that I gave up trying to figure out where and what to cut. Another, top repair tech looked at it and came up with the same conclusion.

My take then was relatively simple, if I was going to use it, I could relearn the BBb from my old student days in a lot less time and with less effort and no real expense. Actually it came back in a few days and has remained as a usable skill ever since.

I figured that trumpet players play a raft of trumpets and manage them in all sorts of keys.
I ask myself if I was so dumb that I couldn't learn another set. Of course I am not. I just needed to convince myself that this was something I both wanted and needed to learn.

Why ruin a good horn, and both waste time and money, by being too lazy or stubborn to learn BBb (or any other keyed tuba) The great players out there now, use BBb even in orchestras on appropriate works. Remember, use the best tool for the job. (if you can)

[roweenie]

There's a particular make/series of c. 90-year-old full-size US-made tubas that are particularly well-suited for shortening from Bb to C....

I'm guessing you are referring to the York Model 33? Some of the very early ones, specifically the ones built in high pitch, and the main tuning slide before the valve set, make very good candidates for this operation, with little-to-no cutting required (CB-50....?) In fact, I'm almost certain that York was already aware of this potential, and used these same branches to build their Model 692 (?) "Symphony Bass" in C.

BTW, none of these operations are "easy" (although a real pro will make it appear so). Basically, every solder joint on the horn needs to be un-done. Next, if cutting is required, you will need to figure out where to do this. Then, and this is big, you will need to make the altered branches fit into ferrules that were not made to fit the new taper you've created. Next, the horn needs to be re-configured, and then re-assembled, braces and all. Then, an appropriate side action valve set needs to be found, then tubed (properly parallel, with a caliper) to the correct lengths, making sure the circuits are routed in a logical way, plaster it onto the horn, and then have a correct length and taper mouthpipe custom bent to fit the new setup. Not so much to do, right?

And after all this work (and it is a lot of work), you may be rewarded for your efforts with a piece of crap that doesn't play in tune with itself.

A really top-notch professional technician (which is what you will need) will only touch projects of this nature that either 1) have a good chance of success, or 2) have personal interest in it (ie., challenge) for themselves. And even then, expect to wait a long time, possibly years.

If you must reconfigure a horn, leaving it in its original key is quite a bit "easier" (I much prefer this approach), and you will be far more likely to end up with a horn that plays just as well as it did originally, since the taper of the bugle is essentially unchanged (but that sort of defeats the main intent, doesn't it?)

...leave those conversions to the professionally-insane hacksawists.

I resemble that remark (actually, "professionally-insane amateur hacksawist", in my case, would be more appropriate.... )

This

Why ruin a good horn, and both waste time and money...?

[TubaJacob]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381624375820?eu ... Tags=bu=bu" target="_blank" target="_blank
What do you guys think about this tuba as a base for a 5 valve swap and a cut down to CC?

[TubaJacob]

Think it would be a good player Bloke?

[roweenie]

I recall seeing (and almost buying, many years ago) a Conn "Donatelli" model built in BB flat...

[roweenie]

http://m.ebay.com/itm/381624375820?sojT ... mwBanner=1

What do you guys think about this tuba as a base for a 5 valve swap and a cut down to CC?

There was recently some discussion on this topic, regarding this very same horn, but I can't find the thread.

Bort, weren't you involved in it?

[TubaJacob]

Isn't that the tubist who ordered a 6/4 york then sold it to Arnold Jacobs because he didn't like it? But you would say not cut this horn or do cut the horn?

[Rick Denney]

Isn't that the tubist who ordered a 6/4 york then sold it to Arnold Jacobs because he didn't like it? But you would say not cut this horn or do cut the horn?

What he is not saying is that you'll probably end up with a crappy C tuba--the C versions of these Conns are not generally known for having a good scale, though there may be the occasional success story at the hands of a master. It is tempting, because so much tubing can be removed simply by running the leadpipe directly into the first valve. But then you have to figure out where to put a tuning slide downstream from the valves. At least you won't have to turn the bugle around to arrange it so that the bell faces left.

The expensive conversion would require buying a valve body from a manufacturer to get all four valves, which will also have the benefit of avoiding the inconvenience of rebuilding the valves on this tuba and figuring out how to add an additional valve.

All tubas have a bell stack, main branches, a dogleg, a tuning slide, a valve body, and a leadpipe. If you replace the valve body on this tuba, you'll need a new dogleg. But you'll also need to add in a tuning slide downstream from the fourth valve, and find a place to add a fifth rotor, including the necessary linkage. Most would, these days, want to put the fifth valve downstream of the other four valves, but there have been good examples where it was in the leadpipe.

By the time you've done all that, you'll have spent as much as a nice Chinese tuba would cost--one that you can play before spending the money. And that's true even if you do the work yourself, if you do it correctly.

You didn't really suggest which group you are in (of the three I suggested in my email), what your skills are, how patient you are, how much risk you can afford, how demanding you will be about the outcome, or how deep are your pockets. So, it's not easy to provide advice. But your statements and questions do suggest little-to-no awareness of prior writings on the topics of converting tubas, which does not fill the peanut gallery with confidence.

Rick "so, again, why do you want to do this?" Denney

[TheGoyWonder]

Taking the tuning slide out of the leadpipe probably does the actual conversion. But there's nowhere to put another tuning slide, look how tight the innermost bows are. And they're too short to put in a slide, and they expand quickly right out the valves so it would be a fat slide...so many pitfalls.

Cool body for sure, but the configuration would make customization hard due to the unique 7-bow design (usually 1 fewer bows in a tuning pre-valves horn, this has 1 more). The 7th bow is a bottom instead of a top, so you'd need a crazy dogleg to feed the tuning slide into it. Maybe you ditch that one if you go for CC.

Maybe a fun toy as is, improbably a candidate for a 4th valve project, more likely a bell harvester if relisted at a fraction of the price. An odd kinda-5/4 size with American flare...probably perfect for a Reynolds tenon.

[Charlie C Chowder]

I have a question about value. What will the value of this reconfigured CC tuba be after all the time, effort, and money you will have put in? Will you be able to get much of it out when it move on to a new owner? You might be better off remodeling your Kitchen. If the end value is of no consequence to you, go for it.

What ever rings your bell,
Charlie C. Chowder

[The Big Ben]

Since you don't have a victim for this project yet, research what other people have done and what parts that they have used. Due to their initial design, some BBb horns are easier to cut to CC than others. Start with something that someone else made work and save some energy.

[roweenie]

Shortly after I typed my comment, I remembered your Buescher project.....

[roweenie]

Shortly after I typed my comment, I remembered your Buescher project.....

not just less cutting...just about no cutting of tapered bows...and remarkable (possibly better than when in BBb) intonation and response.

Agreed. Removing almost 24" of cylindrical tubing out of the bugle can't do anything but help make it play better. As a side note, did Buescher ever make a C tuba? I know that their emphasis was saxophones, so maybe they weren't interested in that segment of the market....

As to cutting (or lack thereof) the York 33 I mentioned is quite similar. The smallest branch is below the valves (ends pointing up), and brings the bore down to .656. Dispensing with this branch nets you about 9", and also brings you, quite conveniently, to a branch pointing down, with a bore very close to the size of the large end of a King 2341 dogleg.

[bort]

http://m.ebay.com/itm/381624375820?sojT ... mwBanner=1

What do you guys think about this tuba as a base for a 5 valve swap and a cut down to CC?

There was recently some discussion on this topic, regarding this very same horn, but I can't find the thread.

Bort, weren't you involved in it?

Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71891&p=585295&hilit=geib#p585235" target="_blank

I decided against it because 1) the previous opening bid was too high, and 2) from what I've learned, the Geib Conn was likely NOT just a BBb tuba from the era, cut to size, and with a rotary valve set. Something different altogether.