Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

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tbonesullivan
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Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by tbonesullivan »

Greetings all! I play mostly trombone now, but back in late 90s when I was in HS, I played a bunch of baritone/euphonium. I'm thinking of getting back into the community band setting (I play orchestral only now), and having a euph would definitely help. So the main problem is that I know very little about euphoniums, except that compensating is good, but expensive, and that older used euphoniums may need a medium shank mouthpiece, of which I have none.

I have one friend who picked up an older 3-valve compensating Euphonium, and he says that has been pretty good for just about everything he has needed it for. I think it was a Besson. I was checking out the Dillon Music website this morning, and they appear to have a Boosey & Hawkes 3 valve compensating horn, but I don't know much about that particular brand.

I've also been looking at 4 valve euphoniums (non-compensating) on the used market as well, but most of them seem to be of "intermediate" build quality, while an older used 3 valve compensating horn might be of better manufacture. Also I would think the 3 valve compensating system would have somewhat better intonation within and slightly above the staff.
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Ken Crawford
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by Ken Crawford »

A Yamaha YEP-321 4 valve non compensating is a good workhorse euphonium that will play well and hold up. Or if you want to go compensating on a budget, Wessex or Mack brass have euphoniums that folks seem to like.

Honestly you shouldn't get too hung up on the whole compensating thing. It only helps to play below E, below the staff, which you'll almost never do. Probably never in community band.
Last edited by Ken Crawford on Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by imperialbari »

Both of my euphoniums are compensating, but if you have played bass trombone and if you like me are thinking in length of tubing needed for a given note, then a non-compensating instrument actually makes for an easier transition.

From other 4 and 5 valve instruments I was used to finding the best funny fingering for a given low note.

When I first played a compensating euphonium, the low range came out a semitone flat, because the instrument automatically did the compensation that I also did by my fingerings. Leading to a gross over-compensation.

Of course I soon learned the right fingerings for the 4-valve compensating euph.

If you are used to playing with a very light sound, then the non-compensating Yamaha YEP-321 will be good.

For a heavier approach go for a compensating euph. Since I bought mine, a fully new lower priced selection has entered the market. If you can buy from a dealer, who will back his sales by his own competent repair shop, then this may be something to consider.

For the more traditional quality brands getting service should not be a problem.

Klaus
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by imperialbari »

nworbekim wrote: i questioned my favorite tech about a few of the older bessons and he liked them but said finding parts could sometimes be a problem.
The current Besson instruments are made after metric measurements, whereas the original UK-built ones were made after Imperial measurements.

So parts are no immediately interchangeable.
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by Donn »

tbonesullivan wrote:Also I would think the 3 valve compensating system would have somewhat better intonation within and slightly above the staff.
Sure, compared to 4 valve - I see you have been looking at the diagrams - but I wonder how far you could count on this. I mean, I have only brief experience with euphonium, but with tubas, they play in tune or they don't, and the valve-arithmetic issue that compensation solves is a relatively small factor. Bottom of the 3rd partial, and the same range of the 2nd partial, but it's maybe 4 notes, assuming you're happy to use combinations of multiple valves where needed, i.e. standard non-compensated fingering. The highest of those notes is C in the bass staff (for euphonium.) Most of the range of the instrument, you just hope you got one that's easy to play in tune, and the rest is up to you. It's a little different than trombone (but again, I only know from experience with a very unusual euphonium-like-object, so take with salt.)
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by Ken Crawford »

58mark wrote:These are surprisingly good

Mendini MEP-L Lacquer Brass B Flat Euphonium with Stainless Steel Pistons, Gold https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052N90CO/re ... gybY24TQ9K" target="_blank" target="_blank
A $400 euphonium? Holy cow, what 3rd world country are these made in and what are the chances of a venomous spider crawling out of it after it arrives?
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by tbonesullivan »

Yeah, coming from trombone, which is a giant tuning slide, I know there will be some things to get used to. My sense of pitch is far better now than it was back in HS, having studied music and trombone in college, and then playing in various community groups for years. I know there's going to be some real getting used to in terms of not really being able to adjust things as much. It wouldn't be much different than most tuba players I know, who are always pulling and pushing tuning slides, and often have valve levers installed on more than one tuning slide. I play a Bach 42, and a King 3b trombone, so I'm used to dealing with intonation quirks and partials that don't line up.

I was looking at the YEP321 and King 2280, especially after reading the lengthy write up on hornguys.com regarding the King. It certainly seems to offer a lot of options to help with intonation. I also happen to be one of those "curmudgeon" people who likes owning trombones without F attachments, as in almost all of the playing I do, they are not needed.

Of course I also have a double valve bass trombone (dependent of course), an alto, and a bunch of Bb/F trombones, because for pit playing, not having to go to 6th position can be quite helpful.

I will definitely have to think more about the pitfalls of the older horns out there. Getting parts for an older 3 valve Besson or Boosey&Hawkes would probably be close to impossible.
Yamaha YBB-631S BBb Tuba, B&H Imperial Eb Tuba, Sterling / Perantucci 1065GHS Euphonium
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by Ken Crawford »

I thought it might be Indian. I guess we have yet to see anything playable out of that country.
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by marccromme »

I have seen Wessex and Mach Brass 3+1 comp euphs for as litte as 500 pound, and have myself bought one used Wessex Dolce at that price range. The Wessex plays well and does satisfy all my doubling needs, and that wich excellent intonation and good high as well as low range. Uses large shank mouthpieces.

As for compensated 3v euphs, the Hirsbrunner is found from time to time cheap for almost the same price, as everybody wants a 4v. It plays even better.

You better check the http://tromboneforum.org" target="_blank site as well, and post a WTB ad there.
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by marccromme »

marccromme wrote:I have seen Wessex and Mach Brass 3+1 comp euphs for as litte as 500 pound ....
You better check the http://tromboneforum.org" target="_blank" target="_blank site as well, and post a WTB ad there.
Newer and more expensive, but here there is one: http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,95776.0.html" target="_blank It does not cost anything to negotiate ...
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by iiipopes »

Have you been over to Dave Werden's forum? They talk a lot about this very issue. The Wessex Dolce is a favorite, although the rest of the alternatives are also discussed.
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by tbonesullivan »

Buying the real thing is always an option. Just a question of which one to get. I tend to be somewhat partial to instruments made by Yamaha, and they are very good about having parts available.
Yamaha YBB-631S BBb Tuba, B&H Imperial Eb Tuba, Sterling / Perantucci 1065GHS Euphonium
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by timothy42b »

tbonesullivan wrote:Yeah, coming from trombone, which is a giant tuning slide, I know there will be some things to get used to. .
Trombone players use the slide on every note for fine tuning.

Euph players have two different approaches: use a combination of lipping and fingering choice to play in tune, or play blissfully out of tune.

I've played in bands with both types. So I know it's possible to play euph musically and in tune. Sadly it's not all that common. I would suggest spending some time with a drone, particularly in the range from middle C to the G above it. Those notes are often horrendously out of tune, F, E, and Eb being the worst offenders. When I have a soli line with euphs in that range, I sometimes have to drop out and let them play it, because even with a slide I can't match their pitch choices.

A few decades back I played euph in a good band for a couple years. I wish I could take back some of the out of tune notes I played back then - my standards have risen over the years. I did build a practice keyboard to get the notes under my fingers, took it and Arban's scales to work and played on all my breaks. If I knew how to upload a photo I'd show it.
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by largobone »

Here's a good list (off the top of my head)

"Student" (<$1000)
-Jinbao-not recommended in general
-pretty much any used 3-valve euph/bari-might be fine for what you want
-Besson New Standard-3 valve compensating-might be better for what you want
-"Meh" condition Yamaha 321, Jupiter, Besson/Boosey&Hawkes (essentially the same company now)-you can have a number of these bought and fixed up for under 1k; I got a vintage Boosey (1906) compensating euph for about $450 and sunk about $100 worth of repairs into it to make it just about perfect, still the best euph I've ever played and it has a very distinct british-euph sound that so many people love

"Intermediate" ($1000-3000)
-Jupiter 470, 570 (now 1000, 1020)-470 is a 4-valve non-compensating, 570 is a 3+1 non-compensating so the only difference is which is more comfortable for you and whether you see an upgrade to a pro model in the future
-Yamaha 321-the go-to trombone doubler euphonium, very reliable 4 non-compensating model and they can be found cheap; I'd suggest having a large shank receiver put on
-King 2280-4 valve non-compensating, similar to the 321 but has a large shank receiver
-Wessex Dolce-3+1 compensating; THE budget horn, can't find a better euphonium for less than 4k (and this one's less than $1500 all tricked out)
-Mack Brass-3+1 compensating; very highly acclaimed by euph players when recommending budget horns, I'm sure several tubists here can attest to their customer service
-Amati-supposedly cheaply made and dent very easily; come in all configurations (4, 3+1 non-comp, 3+1 comp)
-Kanstul 985 or 985-L I think the difference here is 4 vs. 3+1 both non-compensating

"Professional" ($3000+)-all of these are 3+1 compensating models
-Yamaha 642/Neo/Maestro
-Besson Sovereign, Imperial, Prestige
-Cerveny Emperor
-Jupiter 1120 and XO
-Kanstul 975
-You could also look at a used Miraphone or Meinl Weston, but they may be a little overwhelming.
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by tbonesullivan »

timothy42b wrote:Trombone players use the slide on every note for fine tuning.

Euph players have two different approaches: use a combination of lipping and fingering choice to play in tune, or play blissfully out of tune.
I have seen the "pro" level euphs from some makers that have a main tuning slide kicker/trigger, but it doesn't seem to be completely widespread. I'm surprised that there isn't more tuning correcting built in, like in a trumpet with the 1 and 3 valve slides.

King 2280 is looking better and better, and it seems to have a variety of tuning possibilities, and is a lot cheaper than most of the options out there.
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by LowBrassNYC »

I'll second the YEP-321 again. Your not going to find the same quality for the price. It's a no-brainer.
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by timothy42b »

tbonesullivan wrote:I have seen the "pro" level euphs from some makers that have a main tuning slide kicker/trigger, but it doesn't seem to be completely widespread.
It seems like a good idea to me, but I've never played one nor seen one played.

So maybe it's not practical for some reason that doesn't occur to me. Or, just not needed.
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by tbonesullivan »

I would guess it depends on the player. It's definitely more of a "tuba" thing to be adjusting the main tuning slide all the time. Brass Ark has an alexander CC tuba up for sale that has an adjustment rod running from the bottom tuning slide to above the upper bow so you can just use your right hand to adjust. The kickers on the Euphoniums seem to be spring loaded, so they return to "center" after being used.

I have a friend with a B&S F Tuba with a kicker on one of the valves, and had the valve vented as well so it doesn't trap any air.

I will try to get down to DIllon Music next week and see if I can try out some euphs.
timothy42b wrote:It seems like a good idea to me, but I've never played one nor seen one played.

So maybe it's not practical for some reason that doesn't occur to me. Or, just not needed.
Yamaha YBB-631S BBb Tuba, B&H Imperial Eb Tuba, Sterling / Perantucci 1065GHS Euphonium
Yamaha YBL-621 RII Bass Trombone and a bunch of other trombones
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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by FreeBandMusic »

The king 2280 plays well and has a good full-size tone, but the springy tuning gadget is totally unusable... the human hand just does NOT bend that way. I've seen a lot of kings, but no one uses the 3rd valve thing... just disconnect the spring.

the yep 321 is well built and plays in tune, but the tone is much lighter and brighter than the compensators, 3 or 4 valve.

Our music for community band typically has at least one piece on each concert that calls for a fourth valve.

I've heard several of the chinese compensators and they seem okay... Our first chair player uses a Schiller and sounds great.

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Re: Starting out on Euphonium - instrument choice.

Post by dwerden »

There is nothing wrong with the 321, although I prefer the King 2280's tone. However, if you would rather only deal with 3 valves and don't need to go below low E, and 3-valve compensating horn is just fine. I personally prefer the Besson sound over the 321 or 2280. FWIW, Boosey & Hawkes is basically the same instrument as Besson (same company, parts, and production line in modern history). Willson also made one, so if you are a fan of the Willson sound that might work for you. They are extremely rare, but one just sold on eBay recently for $1,750. If you keep an eye on my forum's For Sale section, I will invariably list any of the 3-valve compensating horns when I see a good one for sale.
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/forumdispl ... ted-to-Buy

A 3-valve compensating horn allows you to play low C with 13 and the B below that with 123... AND be in tune! Same for the low F and E.

You can learn more about both the 3- and 4-valve compensating system below. Try the icon/link near the top for an animated version if you want a quick overview:

http://www.dwerden.com/eu-articles-comp.cfm
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