Tuning and Time

Topics regarding life as a professional
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FarahShazam
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Tuning and Time

Post by FarahShazam »

2 topics that remain more important than just learning the tunes or long tones are rhythm and intonation. These 2 things remain a constant staple of pro life.


Upon learning tons of rep, I never considered intonation as a daily fundamental. The first thing I do before rehearsals or performing is playing intervals over a drone with a click track in this background. Being out of tune and not playing in the pocket is worse than hearing a bad sound in your ensemble. I have not heard a bad sound come out of a player who played in tune and in rhythm.

There are cello drones on iTunes. Get that, your phone with ear buds and a metronome in the background. With each chromatic drone, play a fundamental, then a 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th (be sure to lower the 3rd and 6th in major key, raised in minor keys), ended with an octave.

15min every day.

This process turned me into a caring section mate who was always listening to match. Its incredibly easy and will improve your playing.
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by Kory101 »

This.

Drones completely changed my playing. There are so many great resources out there. The Tune-Up System by Steve Cooley is another great one.

Something that really bothers me is seeing people play with tuners running on their stands and just try to play "in the green."

Learning the subtleties of your instrument and where the note your playing needs to sit in the chord is vital to being a great ensemble (and individual) player.
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by Sharp »

Kory101 wrote:Something that really bothers me is seeing people play with tuners running on their stands and just try to play "in the green."

Learning the subtleties of your instrument and where the note your playing needs to sit in the chord is vital to being a great ensemble (and individual) player.
Exactly.

I find this is something lost on a lot of players. Playing in tune with a tuner is absolutely helpful, but practically with an ensemble it cannot always relate because of the point you mention.

Another trap is folks who stare at the tuner and move around until it goes in the green - they don't engrain the habit of centering a note, let alone centering it in tune.

Not fun to play beside these types as it is always a mystery.
FarahShazam wrote:Edited for brevity - read the original post (again!)
Excellent post.

Eat... er, play your drones!
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by cmonte »

Can anybody compare the Tune-Up System by Colley to the Intonation Repair Tool by TKBB Press?
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MaryAnn
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by MaryAnn »

I can't compare it but I have seen the Tune-Up system in action at a horn workshop. Three college horn players who were clueless about how to play major and minor chords in tune (had probably been using their tuners as advisors) were totally fixed in about fifteen minutes once given the fundamentals. It was spectacularly good.
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by iiipopes »

To address the time component, I offer a study in Vierordt's law, which essentially says that we all have an internal tempo balancing point naturally occurring at @ 92 to 94 bpm, and we all want to gravitate towards that, slowing quicker tempos and speeding up slower tempos.

Here is a link to a RadioLab podcast that (after eight minutes discussing Beethoven tempi) explains and demonstrates how a person not aware of what Vierordt's law explains can foul up tempi:

http://www.radiolab.org/story/269783-speedy-beet/" target="_blank" target="_blank

I believe this is essential study for anybody whose primary job in an ensemble is to keep time, including percussionists, bass guitar players, double bass players, tuba players, etc. The explanation of this phenomenon is one reason why, in our beginning music lessons, we were taught how to subdivide the beat, and why even as accomplished musicians we must still subdivide. It's not just a matter of concentration, since this is a physiological phenomenon; it requires a structured awareness and a mechanism to apply the lessons learned.

And after working at it, no player should have any excuse of jumping the third beat in the second measure of the opening riff to Glenn Miller's arrangement of "Little Brown Jug."

And it may explain why the second movement in almost every symphony is an "Andante" movement: to help the players and the audience regroup after the traditional "Allegro" (or faster) first movement.
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by DaveWright »

I spent time tuning my horn in every valve combination but it's all up for grabs when I start playing with a group, then I spend the rest of the gig tuning with them.
My worst nightmare came true when I giged with a piano player using a Yamaha keyboard with a faulty pitch changing wheel. We'd start a tune in C and end up in B natural, Try that for on the job training. Respond si vous plait.
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by LCTuba89 »

Not a professional tubist, but I agree with all the posts above. It really bothers me when people have tuners on their stands trying to stay in the green. I find its much easier to play in tune if you just listen to everyone around you. It's better for members of the ensemble to play in tune with each other rather than individual players trying to be tuner perfect. Rhythm is extremely important as a tubist, especially when you're doing the oompah bass lines like Sleigh Ride. It's easy to lose tempo playing the same thing over and over. Can't tell ya how many times the conductor scolded us for dragging the tempo.
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Leland
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by Leland »

Had a conversation with Rick (RDenney; ya'll know him) this week about both of these things. SO important.

We lived (and died) by the metronome where I used to work. We used tuners to get to a baseline, then listened all the time. Lots of chord work, too.
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by Tubanomicon »

I play page 127 (Interval Studies) in the Arban's book three times during one of my daily practice sessions. The first time I play with a legato tongue, the second time I do breath attacks, and the third time I do natural slurs. I set the drone to the pedal note and change it according to each scale.
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MaryAnn
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by MaryAnn »

What do you say to someone who has a music ed (or even music not ed) degree who is a tuner on the stand type?
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by iiipopes »

MaryAnn wrote:What do you say to someone who has a music ed (or even music not ed) degree who is a tuner on the stand type?
Something like, "So...who was your sight screaming, ear straining and piano profanity teacher?"
(as a joke on sight singing, ear training and piano proficiency)
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Leland
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by Leland »

MaryAnn wrote:What do you say to someone who has a music ed (or even music not ed) degree who is a tuner on the stand type?
"Is the oboe still in tune with your tuner?"

Or just sit to their right and let my horn angle a little lower as the night goes on...
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by Leland »

russiantuba wrote:They should know about chord tunings, how if you are the minor third in a chord, if your tuner shows you are in tune, then you are 16 cents flat.
I figured out a demonstration for this. It's best in a small setting, though.

Get four tuners and two reasonably good players. Each player gets two tuners -- one facing each player, and the others facing outwards so they're viewable everyone else.

Have them play an easily-heard chord, like a fifth, but have them play so their tuners are pegged at exactly "0".

Then, take away one of the player-facing tuners. Now you've got three tuners: one pair facing the audience, and only one player can see his or her own tuner. The second player can't see a tuner at all.

Have them play the same chord, and have the player who can see a tuner stay at "0" while the second player listens and adjusts so the chord sounds good. The tuner showing the second player's pitch to the audience will make it easy to see how far away from "0" they have to play to make the chord sound correct.
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by swillafew »

Clark Terry was talking between songs at a concert, and said, "Yes, we really can hear the grass grow".

How does it work for "perfect pitch" people when you push the notes around as the harmony changes? (Don't worry I have no idea).
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by b.williams »

I play in groups that don't tune and have no sense of time. This makes playing very challenging!! Adjusting to 20th century like atonal centers and polyrhythmic pulses (on Sousa marches) has made me a better player (at least that is what I tell myself).

I pray that these groups would at least start with a tuner.
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iiipopes
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by iiipopes »

It works the other way, also. Over on Talk Bass some years ago, a man was complaining about whatever key he was in that the major third of the arpeggio bassline he was playing was always sharp to his ears. I was the only person who posted who congratulated him on his good ears, and being able to tell the difference between a "pure" major third interval and the tempered intervals necessary for fretted and keyboard instruments to play in all keys. I then explained briefly how a "pure" major third at the ratio of 5/4 (1.25) is smaller than four equally tempered half-steps at 2^(4/12) (@1.26), which renders a tempered major third very "bright" sounding by comparison.
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MaryAnn
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by MaryAnn »

The reason why I disagree with the term "Perfect Pitch" is that it implies that someone with it will always play an A a 440 Hz etc. That they are rigid, mentally-programmed tuners, so to speak. I far prefer the term "pitch recognition," which means if you play a note on the piano I can tell you what it is. Just like if you show me the color blue I can tell you what it is. If you get too far between a standard-intonation note and the half step next to it, I'm going to get it wrong in terms of what I name it, because it doesn't fit into the naming system I learned on piano.
However....that has absolutely nothing to do with playing in tune with a group. Playing in tune with a group means being intensely aware of what is going on around you and blending with it, meaning getting rid of the damn beats as much as possible. With atonal modern music, that becomes pretty much impossible, but with tonal music, I see that as a major difference between pros and amateurs. The pros, always, are focused on what is going on around them and blending with it. The amateurs, nearly always, are doing the opposite. My favorite example was trying to play in a string quartet with someone who was the epitome of what I can an amateur....he had decent technique, and when the group started to go sideways with rhythm, his response was to start loudly stomping his foot on what he considered SHOULD be the beat, meaning HIS internal beat and to heck with the group. Those two things, no matter the physical competence level, for me define the pro from the amateur. What you are listening to and blending with; the group, or yourself.
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by Eflatdoubler »

Interesting how you see pitches in colors- I find I hear music similarly. I actual think of colors more often then not when performing atonal music (I don't play it nearly as often as I used to).
I find that playing scales against drone tones is the most productive exercise for pitch, with additional benefits for tone and range.
I was playing bagpipes for a while and finally got a chanter to lower my pitch to B flat at 466hz as I got sick of calling a note an "A" and having it tune at 478-486hz.
I agree the term "Perfect Pitch" is not the best word to use- as I am sure there was pitch recognition well before a pitch standard was established.
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Re: Tuning and Time

Post by Podbacio »

Also, give my vote to Tune-Up
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