Eb vs F

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Jim Brewer
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Eb vs F

Post by Jim Brewer »

I've been wanting to get a smaller tuba to have along with my CC. I've played a C horn since college, a Bb before that and started on an old Eb. Love the Eb horns but wondering if I wouldn't be better off with an F. Add a note: I've never had the opportunity to play an F horn.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by Jim Brewer »

I started on a Conn Eb when I was 15 ,then used a Mirafone Bb for 3 yrs. Using the Eb was a necessity since there were no other horns available in that school. And going from French horn to Eb was relatively easy with the fingerings. Since I only play in bands now I thought the Eb would be a better fit.

In college the consensus was CC horn was always better than sliced bread. Looking back, I'm not sure I agree with that. Anything I could play or a C, I could play just as well on a Bb. CC fingerings was easier for orchestra, but sucked on some band pieces.
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by Three Valves »

We must knows the ends in order to justify the means!!

:tuba:
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by MaryAnn »

If you're a rotor guy, go for an Eb. If you're a piston guy, doesn't matter.
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by Jim Brewer »

Fair question. Quintet work mostly, even though I could play quintet well with my MW CC. 100% of my playing is band, with the old orchestra transcriptions with a half million flats. The tuba section has 3 Bbs, an Eb, and 2 Cs.
I do love the way the Eb fits in. It's agile, great tone, and killer pedals tones. My C does well but stuffy under low G.

If I had to say, it's more of a preference at this point to have the option to play a smaller horn.
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by pjv »

Eb is probably the most all around tuba ever. (There I said it).
I never learned to play it (BBb when I started, CC&F later), so I'm not an expert in that sense, but from all the recordings I've heard a Besson-type Eb comes out as the easiest to play and the most in tune. I've also heard good things about some single 5v Eb's.
Clean sound, steady big sound in all the registers and in tune.
Doubts? Look how much people complain about stuffy, out of tune or difficult to manage notes on tubas and you'll find they're usually not talking about Eb's.
Just sayin'
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by Three Valves »

Needs six valves to make it sound half-way decent??

Pass...
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by opus37 »

I'd suggest you go with the Eb. I will fit your needs, have the smallest learning curve, and assuming you are going to purchase a used horn, likely cheaper and more plentiful than an F.
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by Jim Brewer »

Aren't the compensating horns more stuffy than a on-compensator? Or is that just from players that pick one up, and are not used to them?
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by MaryAnn »

I'm glad someone got it. :)
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by pjv »

E tuba? (the "guitar friendly" tuba)
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by marccromme »

Jim Brewer wrote:Fair question. Quintet work mostly, even though I could play quintet well with my MW CC. 100% of my playing is band, with the old orchestra transcriptions with a half million flats. The tuba section has 3 Bbs, an Eb, and 2 Cs.
I do love the way the Eb fits in. It's agile, great tone, and killer pedals tones. My C does well but stuffy under low G.

If I had to say, it's more of a preference at this point to have the option to play a smaller horn.
I think you are answering your own question: Eb fits well with band with many flats and quintet work. And if you want a more singing tonal quality, don't go for a standard brass band 48cm 19 inch bell 3+1 compensated horn, look for a 17inch or 42cm bell, I would say a 5 valve with easy accessible trigger slide on 4th or 5th, or a 3+1 compensated horn are equally fine if good quality.

Check out the 17inch bell Besson (top or front action), the Meinl-Weston 2142 or 2024/5, the Miraphone Nordic Star, or the Willson 3400, just to name a few from the top of my head. And report back what you like about these ...
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by barry grrr-ero »

I more or less grew up on Besson tubas, so I've never felt that compensating tubas were all that stuffy. I guess that's a bit like those who say they can work around a 'wonky' low C on an F tuba. For me, the only low note that felt and sounded stuffy on a 3 +1 compensating Eb is - of course! - low E natural (all four valves depressed). My front action 983 had a rock solid low F. I only sold that tuba because my right hand couldn't deal with the long pistons any longer. However, the 3 + 1 style is less challenging in that regard since the fourth valve is in left hand.

Shorter version: if the 3 + 1 style compensating Eb interests you, I wouldn't worry about stuffy low notes unless you need to belt out loud low E naturals all day long.

p.s. I've used compensating eefers at Oktoberfests where I had to play lots of low F's, and never had any trouble doing that. We were on mikes, so using a larger tuba wasn't necessary. The old Bessons have a sweet sound that few F tubas can duplicate, but F tubas - naturally enough - offer a bit more agility. I know that much from just trying them out.
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by marccromme »

bloke wrote:The low E is going to be particularly "stuffy" on a comp-Eb because the compensating system completely "runs out of gas" at that point; the low E is horribly sharp. Much of the experienced "stuffiness" is (in reality, simply) "not enough tubing"..
Here is m solution: I play a 5v FA Eb (all valves right hand) tuba where I easily can manipulate the 4th slide trigger with my left hand.
Pulling the right amount between 0 and 8 cm brings every valve combination in the contra octave into tune, right down to the pedals.

Bb (4) - A (235)- Ab (45) - G (234) - Gb (345- F (2345)- E (12345) and (pedal) Eb all fine in tune. Off course, resistance increases down to E and decreases on shift to pedal Eb, going from maximal tubing length to minimal length, but that is expected.

And I don't loose a perfectly in-tune E with 235 (or 24 plus 3cm pull), or F (4 no pull).
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by barry grrr-ero »

Bloke, that's brilliant. I'll remember that if I ever go back to a compensating eefer. I had a throw rod for the main slide, so I would push all the way out for those bottom notes. As a result, the F was pretty good and the E still somewhat sharp. I played with the third valve slide pulled out a good distance.
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by Patrase »

I second (or third) getting a smaller than 19 inch bell Eb tuba. If you buy an old Besson one budget for a valve rebuild and put rubber dampers and Yamaha springs in it. Also experiment with alternate fingering in the upper register. The PT84 mouthpiece works well Bessons and fits older Bessons if you order the XS shank. Wessex have a solo model and Yamaha had one as well. Bloke had a Willson one too at some point. Don't get a non compensated 4 valve Eb.

The piston 5 valve Eb tubas are awesome. Super easy low range and much easier to jump between registers. But they are harder to find second hand. Also harder to play than 3+1 Eb if join a brass band.

I would only consider F if you are going to play solos or orchestral parts
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by Phil Dawson »

I have a Miraphone 1293 CC, a Connn 3J CC, and a Besson 983 E flat all in silver. I play all of them regularly and love them all - just in different ways. the easiest to play is probably the 1293. Phil
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by Ltrain »

Patrase wrote:Also harder to play than 3+1 Eb if join a brass band.

I would only consider F if you are going to play solos or orchestral parts
????????? - to both points quoted above.
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by Patrase »

Re the above:

I have owned/played 3+1 Eb, 5 valve Eb and 5 valve F.

In brass band music, particularly the higher level pieces, the parts are so technical that 3+1 makes the fast technical passages that much easier to play.

Regarding F tuba I found that, compared to Eb, the well known bass tuba orchestral excerpts (eg Symphonie Fantastique) and solos (Vaughn Williams, Penderecki Capriccio), to name but a few, seemed easier on F.
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Re: Eb vs F

Post by PaulMaybery »

I believe that in listening to a great Eb player, say like John Fletcher in all of those PJBE recordings and his recording of the VW will demonstrate, rather convincingly, that the Eb Besson with the large bell works just fine. I used one for about 10 years when I served as Divisional Music Director for The Salvation Army. Mine had a larger lead pipe and thus tended to sound a bit darker than John's, but it got around remarkably well and with a gorgeous buttery sound. I did play it mostly in treble clef, and while I did use it in several orchestra performances and standard quintet gigs, I never quite felt that I mastered the fingerings. So I eventually went back to my tubas of 40 years, the good ol' F and CC. Sometimes I think had I first learned the Eb tuba, life may have been a bit better as I believe that accoustically it is perhaps the most perfect of all the keys for a tuba. But like most Americans, I began on BBb, switched to CC in grad school and then the F when I eventually became a professional free lancer. Funny, even after having put the BBb down around 40 years ago, when I do pick it up, it instinctively feels the most natural in my hands. But I have lost the touch on it so, I'm not going back. I never found the compensation system "stuffy". Yes there seemed to be a bit more resistance to a Besson, but much of that I attribute to the heavier gauge of the metal. Besson makes a non compensation series of low brasses, and we had several in the SA. Other than not being compensating, they still had that characteristic Besson feel to them. I rather enjoyed that resistant timber. For me it tended to improve the focus of the notes and made it more dificult to distort the sound when playing in extremely loud passages.
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