Mouthpiece Buzzing

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happyroman
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by happyroman »

Mr. Jacobs recommended against free buzzing. He said that the lips are formed from two primary kinds of muscle groups. The main lip muscles are those of the obicularis oris, which run more or less horizontally across the opening of the mouth. These are very powerful compared to the second group, which consist of a set of very delicate muscle fibers that run perpendicular to the obicularis oris, and form a sort of basket weave pattern. These more delicate muscles are responsible for shaping the lips through retraction, protraction, elevation, and depression.

It is this shaping that allows the lips to vibrate at the different frequencies that produce different pitches. In order for these delicate muscles to function properly, Jake said that they needed to be isolated by the light pressure of the rim. If we free buzz, the larger muscles of the obicularis oris will overpower the smaller, more delicate muscles which can be detrimental for many players. Mr. Jacobs did acknowledge that some players seemed to benefit from free buzzing, including a couple of his more prominent students, Patrick Sheridan and Gail Williams. However, interviews I have seen with those two players indicate that they used free buzzing very judiciously and for only a few minutes a day. Sheridan, in particular, said he used free buzzing to work on maintaining firm corners.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by swillafew »

It might not be good use of a celebrity soloist's time, but a whole bunch of other people get very immediate benefits from a little mouthpiece time.

I watched a very good clinic by Vincent Cichowitz, and he was like a doctor curing illnesses on player after player. He had each and every one of them buzz the parts they struggled with, and the struggling was all but gone in moments.

A whole chapter of Kleinhammer's trombone book is about the same thing, if you need more testimony about it.

Buzzing was my audition for elementary school band, too, so I go way back with it.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

It seems that there is considerable overlap between teachers who discourage their students from buzzing and teachers who discourage their students from posting on TubeNet.

There is quite a bit of high quality ambivalence out there about this practice, but it seems to be underrepresented on this board when this subject comes up.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

58mark wrote: I make no apologies for the amount of buzzing I do in lessons. Almost every student at every level starts with buzzing, from beginner to All stater. I listen for breathing, tone, tonguing, and everything else that I can hear in the buzz that the horn might mask. I call buzzing an X-ray into the mouth and throat.

The trick is getting the students to continue the habits we work on during a lesson during the week. An average tone on the horn is usually created by a terrible sounding buzz, but an acceptable sounding buzz will create a glorious tone on the horn

Every time
I wouldn't dream of asking you to apologize or change what you do. I'm just saying some of the most highly regarded and successful teachers of our instruments either don't use it at all, or use it only for matching pitches. Reading TN, one could get the impression that everyone does this and anyone who doesn't is either incompetent or a crank, and that is far from the case.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

lowbrassmaniac wrote:If anything, buzzing (while at work, in the car, on the pot, etc..) is good just to keep some basic muscle memory to play the horn in case you go weeks in between rehearsals or more. It can't be all that bad.
See, that's just begging the question. Maybe it's good and maybe it's not. That's what we're talking about. But don't worry, practically everyone here agrees with you.

I just wanted to sneak the alternative view of some very fine teachers (Winston Morris, for example) into this pro-buzzing juggernaut.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by arpthark »

Michael Bush wrote: I just wanted to sneak the alternative view of some very fine teachers (Winston Morris, for example) into this pro-buzzing juggernaut.
I can think of a few, too. My professor discouraged it except as a means to attune your ear at, say, the piano if you are having difficulty centering a lick. Not to be used as an extended practice tool. But, one view out of many, and there are many paths to success, as evidenced by this discussion.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by happyroman »

Michael Bush wrote:
lowbrassmaniac wrote:If anything, buzzing (while at work, in the car, on the pot, etc..) is good just to keep some basic muscle memory to play the horn in case you go weeks in between rehearsals or more. It can't be all that bad.
See, that's just begging the question. Maybe it's good and maybe it's not. That's what we're talking about. But don't worry, practically everyone here agrees with you.

I just wanted to sneak the alternative view of some very fine teachers (Winston Morris, for example) into this pro-buzzing juggernaut.
In addition to studying with Mr. Jacobs, I also studies with Harvey Phillips when I did my Masters at IU. We never discussed buzzing the mouthpiece in my lessons. He knew I did it, and since it helped, he didn't discourage me. But others I had a few lessons with, at times when Mr. Phillips was away on tour, including Dan Perantoni, Michael Lind, and Fritz Kaenzig, all were advocates of buzzing. Those are some pretty prominent teachers, IMO. At least two of Perantoni's students were in the semis at Seattle, and one of Fritz's students plays in Philly.

My point is that there are some teachers that are not advocates, but I do think that there are a lot more teachers that are advocates.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

happyroman wrote: My point is that there are some teachers that are not advocates, but I do think that there are a lot more teachers that are advocates.
Yes. That's what I said too. I just popped my head up on this subject as a reminder that there is not just one way of thinking about this. Some brilliant teachers don't agree this is useful. That's my only point.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by MaryAnn »

So I did the "See how long you can buzz a low F into the mouthpiece and then seen how long you can play a low F on the tuba." So, I interpreted "low F" as the F above my pedal Eb. I counted 14 seconds of getting a recognizable tone with the mouthpiece. Then I put it into the tuba. It sounded like someone buzzing into a mouthpiece and then sticking the mouthpiece into the tuba, as opposed to having it sound like a low F on the tuba. If I use enough air to get a nice low F on the tuba, I last about one second because that is my air supply in that range with all those valves down. I can hold a pedal Eb much longer. I'm not a fan of mouthpiece buzzing -except- for learning to buzz across breaks, where it has been very useful for me on the horn. If you can siren up and down the whole range on the mouthpiece, you are going to be able to play that same range on the tuba without breaks, with some practice.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by TubaKen »

I have a few comments about some of the statements made, and some questions. This is a very interesting topic, and obviously somewhat controversial. By taking the contrarian view (i.e. mouthpiece buzzing isn't very helpful, except in some limited circumstances), I'm not just arguing for arguing's sake. I really want to understand why those of you who advocate it came to your point of view. Also, I am in no way denigrating the work of Arnold Jacobs, obviously one of the greatest brass pedagogues of all time.
Here are the quotes/comments:
As the resistance provided by the instrument is removed, it is physically more difficult to get the embouchure to vibrate. As we learn this new skill, we are in fact developing an embouchure that wants to vibrate, as opposed to one that we force to vibrate.
So, it's useful for beginners--what about intermediate/advanced players?
By buzzing on the mouthpiece, focusing on playing in tune, we learn very quickly to play on the center of the pitch. When we play on the center of the pitch, and have the tube set to the corresponding, and correct, length, the tone quality is improved.
So, it's useful for ear-training. But, unless you have perfect pitch, you would need to practice with a tuner, or at the piano, correct?
Finally, one can find anecdotal evidence to support just about any point we are trying to make. By saying that Tommy Johnson was not an advocate of mouthpiece buzzing implies that there may be an equal number of prominent teachers on both sides of the argument.
Nope, not implied, by me or that statement. Just pointing out (as others did) that there are "heavies" on both sides of the equation.
I watched a very good clinic by Vincent Cichowitz, and he was like a doctor curing illnesses on player after player. He had each and every one of them buzz the parts they struggled with, and the struggling was all but gone in moments.
This echoes Bloke's point about the whole thing being 90% mental (I think I might say 95%.) By practicing a difficult passage on the mouthpiece alone, you are removing the possibility of failure, and you can get on the right track again.
And finally:
I believe I could come up with some other substitutes for "practicing the tuba" that don't involve a tuba, but none of them would be as effective as actually "practicing the tuba".
Which pretty much sums up how I (currently) feel.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

TubaKen wrote:
Finally, one can find anecdotal evidence to support just about any point we are trying to make. By saying that Tommy Johnson was not an advocate of mouthpiece buzzing implies that there may be an equal number of prominent teachers on both sides of the argument.
Nope, not implied, by me or that statement. Just pointing out (as others did) that there are "heavies" on both sides of the equation.
An important point. This might be one of those things that should be weighed rather than counted, or at least in addition to being counted.

Tommy Johnson, Harvey Philips, Winston Morris, Skip Grey, bloke, David Zerkel, and a few others I could guess but don't know for sure, don't outvote everyone, but they outweigh a good many.

If nothing else, weighing in addition to counting shows that there is not just one valuable approach to thinking about it.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

TubaKen wrote:
Finally, one can find anecdotal evidence to support just about any point we are trying to make. By saying that Tommy Johnson was not an advocate of mouthpiece buzzing implies that there may be an equal number of prominent teachers on both sides of the argument.
Nope, not implied, by me or that statement. Just pointing out (as others did) that there are "heavies" on both sides of the equation.
An important point. This might be one of those things that should be weighed rather than counted, or at least in addition to being counted.

Tommy Johnson, Harvey Philips, Winston Morris, Skip Grey, bloke, David Zerkel, and a few others I could guess but don't know for sure, don't outvote everyone, but they outweigh a good many.

If nothing else, weighing in addition to counting shows that there is not just one valuable approach to thinking about it.

(Again, we all agree that buzzing rather than not-buzzing or buzzing-only-for-limited-purposes is the majority view.)
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Donn »

TubaKen wrote:\
By buzzing on the mouthpiece, focusing on playing in tune, we learn very quickly to play on the center of the pitch. When we play on the center of the pitch, and have the tube set to the corresponding, and correct, length, the tone quality is improved.
So, it's useful for ear-training. But, unless you have perfect pitch, you would need to practice with a tuner, or at the piano, correct?
That doesn't follow. It's almost like saying you may as well not practice singing, unless you have perfect pitch. Practice improves your ability to hit a pitch. If you don't have a good ear, you're not going to play well, but you don't want to compound the problem with chops that don't go to the pitch you want. I'm not prescribing any particular practice regimen here myself, for goodness sakes, just commenting on the logic as I see it.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by happyroman »

I'll finish my meager contributions to this thread with the following.

Arnold Jacobs is considered by many to have been, if not the best, certainly one of the best players and teachers ever. He buzzed on the mouthpiece and rim throughout his career because it helped him be a better player. Because he found it so valuable for his own playing, he used the practice in his teaching and encouraged his students to buzz their mouthpieces as well.

I simply shake my head in disbelief when I hear someone dismiss such a valuable practice tool. I firmly believe that anyone who says they don't get any benefit from buzzing falls into one of the following categories. They don't understand how to use buzzing in their practice in order to achieve maximum benefit, or they haven't committed to doing it for a sufficient length of time to be able to make a realistic determination of its value.

When we are learning a new skill, we are not very good at it. Human nature says that we will tend to stop doing things we don't do well in order to focus on things we are good at. If you have tried buzzing and stopped because it sounded like crap, so you stopped, I highly encourage you to try again and continue it for an extended period, just a few minutes a day for a couple of months. If you do this, I firmly believe you will be hooked because of the rapid improvement you see in your playing.

Here's a link to a short video of Jake in a Master Class discussing buzzing on the mouthpiece and its value. At the beginning, he says "There are no shortcuts in this profession that I'm aware of. But there are ways of maximal efficiency and this is one that seems to almost qualify as a short cut."

http://www.windsongpress.com/mouthpiece-rims" target="_blank
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Will Jones »

Dr. Bowman would suggest putting your little finger slightly over the end of the mouthpiece to add some resistance back. I also had a friend that made a little PVC "bit" with a hole so you could actually put the mouthpiece in the horn and buzz. I think both of those modifications are beneficial.

But buzzing is not the end-all. It's a diagnostic, and a check up to make sure nothing's going wrong.

Bottom line for me is that buzzing is helpful mostly because takes away a crutch. It's Something I do during my practice, I think probably every day, to ensure I'm actually producing the pitches with my air/face aparatus rather than relying on the horn to get the pitch in place. But if you are practicing for the best sound, that's a combination of your air/face together with the resonance of the instrument. I think you can make a good sound by buzzing - but In my experience, a great sound stems from an air/face aparatus that interacts beneficially with the resonance the horn is sending back at it. It's not the same thing, and over-focus on buzzing without the horn might mean you aren't producing the best possible sound. Maybe the oral cavity isn't the right shape. Maybe the embouchure isn't the right suppleness. Maybe the air maybe maybe. Who knows? A good buzz into the horn is just the starting point. Getting the buzz to interact well with the horn is the ultimate goal.

This video by Jim Markey is another good reference: key phrase "the very same principle that tells us the buzz isn't everything tells us the buzz is important."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1OX7-_80eI" target="_blank
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

happyroman wrote: I firmly believe that anyone who says they don't get any benefit from buzzing falls into one of the following categories. They don't understand how to use buzzing in their practice in order to achieve maximum benefit, or they haven't committed to doing it for a sufficient length of time to be able to make a realistic determination of its value.
A few months ago on Facebook this discussion was going on in pretty much the same way as this thread, and some guy straight-up said that if Winston Morris, in particular, has no use for buzzing, "He doesn't know what he's doing."
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Lectron »

Do I buzz, yes I do.
Why?
It's easier to lump around than a tuba and it kinda works.
Mostly do lip-buzzing without MPC
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

bloke wrote:TNFJ talking in circles
It's what we do.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

bloke wrote:I'm glad someone got the joke.
The particular species of beetle it is being central to the joke... :lol:
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Leland »

Halfway between mouthpiece buzzing and playing normally on the horn:

Am I the only one who's tried... no, actually used... holding open spit valves to practice?

It throws the resonance of the horn WAY out of whack (if you can open multiple spit valves on the main bugle, even better, because just one open valve creates some weird nodes while a second or third open valve can offset them) but maintains some semblance of resistance that's pretty much the same as playing the horn normally.

The "pfff-pfff-pffff" hiss of the leaky valves also exposes the amount and stability of the windstream.

And, of course, if you try to buzz the wrong pitch, the horn absolutely will not help you.

If you can play a passage on a "leaky" horn with all the correct pitches at the correct dynamic phrasing and on time, I'll just about guarantee that when you close the leaks, you'll sound like you've gained at least a week's worth of practice.

I've used this several times in sectional rehearsals, and it's worked great every time.
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