Mouthpiece Buzzing

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arpthark
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by arpthark »

Michael Bush wrote: I just wanted to sneak the alternative view of some very fine teachers (Winston Morris, for example) into this pro-buzzing juggernaut.
I can think of a few, too. My professor discouraged it except as a means to attune your ear at, say, the piano if you are having difficulty centering a lick. Not to be used as an extended practice tool. But, one view out of many, and there are many paths to success, as evidenced by this discussion.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by happyroman »

Michael Bush wrote:
lowbrassmaniac wrote:If anything, buzzing (while at work, in the car, on the pot, etc..) is good just to keep some basic muscle memory to play the horn in case you go weeks in between rehearsals or more. It can't be all that bad.
See, that's just begging the question. Maybe it's good and maybe it's not. That's what we're talking about. But don't worry, practically everyone here agrees with you.

I just wanted to sneak the alternative view of some very fine teachers (Winston Morris, for example) into this pro-buzzing juggernaut.
In addition to studying with Mr. Jacobs, I also studies with Harvey Phillips when I did my Masters at IU. We never discussed buzzing the mouthpiece in my lessons. He knew I did it, and since it helped, he didn't discourage me. But others I had a few lessons with, at times when Mr. Phillips was away on tour, including Dan Perantoni, Michael Lind, and Fritz Kaenzig, all were advocates of buzzing. Those are some pretty prominent teachers, IMO. At least two of Perantoni's students were in the semis at Seattle, and one of Fritz's students plays in Philly.

My point is that there are some teachers that are not advocates, but I do think that there are a lot more teachers that are advocates.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

happyroman wrote: My point is that there are some teachers that are not advocates, but I do think that there are a lot more teachers that are advocates.
Yes. That's what I said too. I just popped my head up on this subject as a reminder that there is not just one way of thinking about this. Some brilliant teachers don't agree this is useful. That's my only point.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by MaryAnn »

So I did the "See how long you can buzz a low F into the mouthpiece and then seen how long you can play a low F on the tuba." So, I interpreted "low F" as the F above my pedal Eb. I counted 14 seconds of getting a recognizable tone with the mouthpiece. Then I put it into the tuba. It sounded like someone buzzing into a mouthpiece and then sticking the mouthpiece into the tuba, as opposed to having it sound like a low F on the tuba. If I use enough air to get a nice low F on the tuba, I last about one second because that is my air supply in that range with all those valves down. I can hold a pedal Eb much longer. I'm not a fan of mouthpiece buzzing -except- for learning to buzz across breaks, where it has been very useful for me on the horn. If you can siren up and down the whole range on the mouthpiece, you are going to be able to play that same range on the tuba without breaks, with some practice.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by TubaKen »

I have a few comments about some of the statements made, and some questions. This is a very interesting topic, and obviously somewhat controversial. By taking the contrarian view (i.e. mouthpiece buzzing isn't very helpful, except in some limited circumstances), I'm not just arguing for arguing's sake. I really want to understand why those of you who advocate it came to your point of view. Also, I am in no way denigrating the work of Arnold Jacobs, obviously one of the greatest brass pedagogues of all time.
Here are the quotes/comments:
As the resistance provided by the instrument is removed, it is physically more difficult to get the embouchure to vibrate. As we learn this new skill, we are in fact developing an embouchure that wants to vibrate, as opposed to one that we force to vibrate.
So, it's useful for beginners--what about intermediate/advanced players?
By buzzing on the mouthpiece, focusing on playing in tune, we learn very quickly to play on the center of the pitch. When we play on the center of the pitch, and have the tube set to the corresponding, and correct, length, the tone quality is improved.
So, it's useful for ear-training. But, unless you have perfect pitch, you would need to practice with a tuner, or at the piano, correct?
Finally, one can find anecdotal evidence to support just about any point we are trying to make. By saying that Tommy Johnson was not an advocate of mouthpiece buzzing implies that there may be an equal number of prominent teachers on both sides of the argument.
Nope, not implied, by me or that statement. Just pointing out (as others did) that there are "heavies" on both sides of the equation.
I watched a very good clinic by Vincent Cichowitz, and he was like a doctor curing illnesses on player after player. He had each and every one of them buzz the parts they struggled with, and the struggling was all but gone in moments.
This echoes Bloke's point about the whole thing being 90% mental (I think I might say 95%.) By practicing a difficult passage on the mouthpiece alone, you are removing the possibility of failure, and you can get on the right track again.
And finally:
I believe I could come up with some other substitutes for "practicing the tuba" that don't involve a tuba, but none of them would be as effective as actually "practicing the tuba".
Which pretty much sums up how I (currently) feel.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

TubaKen wrote:
Finally, one can find anecdotal evidence to support just about any point we are trying to make. By saying that Tommy Johnson was not an advocate of mouthpiece buzzing implies that there may be an equal number of prominent teachers on both sides of the argument.
Nope, not implied, by me or that statement. Just pointing out (as others did) that there are "heavies" on both sides of the equation.
An important point. This might be one of those things that should be weighed rather than counted, or at least in addition to being counted.

Tommy Johnson, Harvey Philips, Winston Morris, Skip Grey, bloke, David Zerkel, and a few others I could guess but don't know for sure, don't outvote everyone, but they outweigh a good many.

If nothing else, weighing in addition to counting shows that there is not just one valuable approach to thinking about it.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

TubaKen wrote:
Finally, one can find anecdotal evidence to support just about any point we are trying to make. By saying that Tommy Johnson was not an advocate of mouthpiece buzzing implies that there may be an equal number of prominent teachers on both sides of the argument.
Nope, not implied, by me or that statement. Just pointing out (as others did) that there are "heavies" on both sides of the equation.
An important point. This might be one of those things that should be weighed rather than counted, or at least in addition to being counted.

Tommy Johnson, Harvey Philips, Winston Morris, Skip Grey, bloke, David Zerkel, and a few others I could guess but don't know for sure, don't outvote everyone, but they outweigh a good many.

If nothing else, weighing in addition to counting shows that there is not just one valuable approach to thinking about it.

(Again, we all agree that buzzing rather than not-buzzing or buzzing-only-for-limited-purposes is the majority view.)
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Donn »

TubaKen wrote:\
By buzzing on the mouthpiece, focusing on playing in tune, we learn very quickly to play on the center of the pitch. When we play on the center of the pitch, and have the tube set to the corresponding, and correct, length, the tone quality is improved.
So, it's useful for ear-training. But, unless you have perfect pitch, you would need to practice with a tuner, or at the piano, correct?
That doesn't follow. It's almost like saying you may as well not practice singing, unless you have perfect pitch. Practice improves your ability to hit a pitch. If you don't have a good ear, you're not going to play well, but you don't want to compound the problem with chops that don't go to the pitch you want. I'm not prescribing any particular practice regimen here myself, for goodness sakes, just commenting on the logic as I see it.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by happyroman »

I'll finish my meager contributions to this thread with the following.

Arnold Jacobs is considered by many to have been, if not the best, certainly one of the best players and teachers ever. He buzzed on the mouthpiece and rim throughout his career because it helped him be a better player. Because he found it so valuable for his own playing, he used the practice in his teaching and encouraged his students to buzz their mouthpieces as well.

I simply shake my head in disbelief when I hear someone dismiss such a valuable practice tool. I firmly believe that anyone who says they don't get any benefit from buzzing falls into one of the following categories. They don't understand how to use buzzing in their practice in order to achieve maximum benefit, or they haven't committed to doing it for a sufficient length of time to be able to make a realistic determination of its value.

When we are learning a new skill, we are not very good at it. Human nature says that we will tend to stop doing things we don't do well in order to focus on things we are good at. If you have tried buzzing and stopped because it sounded like crap, so you stopped, I highly encourage you to try again and continue it for an extended period, just a few minutes a day for a couple of months. If you do this, I firmly believe you will be hooked because of the rapid improvement you see in your playing.

Here's a link to a short video of Jake in a Master Class discussing buzzing on the mouthpiece and its value. At the beginning, he says "There are no shortcuts in this profession that I'm aware of. But there are ways of maximal efficiency and this is one that seems to almost qualify as a short cut."

http://www.windsongpress.com/mouthpiece-rims" target="_blank
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Will Jones »

Dr. Bowman would suggest putting your little finger slightly over the end of the mouthpiece to add some resistance back. I also had a friend that made a little PVC "bit" with a hole so you could actually put the mouthpiece in the horn and buzz. I think both of those modifications are beneficial.

But buzzing is not the end-all. It's a diagnostic, and a check up to make sure nothing's going wrong.

Bottom line for me is that buzzing is helpful mostly because takes away a crutch. It's Something I do during my practice, I think probably every day, to ensure I'm actually producing the pitches with my air/face aparatus rather than relying on the horn to get the pitch in place. But if you are practicing for the best sound, that's a combination of your air/face together with the resonance of the instrument. I think you can make a good sound by buzzing - but In my experience, a great sound stems from an air/face aparatus that interacts beneficially with the resonance the horn is sending back at it. It's not the same thing, and over-focus on buzzing without the horn might mean you aren't producing the best possible sound. Maybe the oral cavity isn't the right shape. Maybe the embouchure isn't the right suppleness. Maybe the air maybe maybe. Who knows? A good buzz into the horn is just the starting point. Getting the buzz to interact well with the horn is the ultimate goal.

This video by Jim Markey is another good reference: key phrase "the very same principle that tells us the buzz isn't everything tells us the buzz is important."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1OX7-_80eI" target="_blank
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

happyroman wrote: I firmly believe that anyone who says they don't get any benefit from buzzing falls into one of the following categories. They don't understand how to use buzzing in their practice in order to achieve maximum benefit, or they haven't committed to doing it for a sufficient length of time to be able to make a realistic determination of its value.
A few months ago on Facebook this discussion was going on in pretty much the same way as this thread, and some guy straight-up said that if Winston Morris, in particular, has no use for buzzing, "He doesn't know what he's doing."
:roll:
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Lectron »

Do I buzz, yes I do.
Why?
It's easier to lump around than a tuba and it kinda works.
Mostly do lip-buzzing without MPC
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

bloke wrote:TNFJ talking in circles
It's what we do.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

bloke wrote:I'm glad someone got the joke.
The particular species of beetle it is being central to the joke... :lol:
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Leland
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Leland »

Halfway between mouthpiece buzzing and playing normally on the horn:

Am I the only one who's tried... no, actually used... holding open spit valves to practice?

It throws the resonance of the horn WAY out of whack (if you can open multiple spit valves on the main bugle, even better, because just one open valve creates some weird nodes while a second or third open valve can offset them) but maintains some semblance of resistance that's pretty much the same as playing the horn normally.

The "pfff-pfff-pffff" hiss of the leaky valves also exposes the amount and stability of the windstream.

And, of course, if you try to buzz the wrong pitch, the horn absolutely will not help you.

If you can play a passage on a "leaky" horn with all the correct pitches at the correct dynamic phrasing and on time, I'll just about guarantee that when you close the leaks, you'll sound like you've gained at least a week's worth of practice.

I've used this several times in sectional rehearsals, and it's worked great every time.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Leland »

bloke wrote:This seems to have merit.
I believe I'll give it a shot.
thanks!
The positive features promise to be that the embouchure will function just as it does when playing, there will be considerable resistance, but there will be enough instability to open the (as they are named) "slots" super-wide, so the player must (as with the free-buzzing school) generate all the pitches.
It's eye-opening, both the first time you try it (as in, "holy crap this is hard") and when you put the horn back to normal. It might only take a few minutes of effort, too.

Holding the spit valves/water keys open can be tricky. I think a rubber band would work, though. A quick experiment can be done by pulling the main tuning slide out of the horn (although the short pipe have some nodes of its own).

I arrived at this idea like how they arrived at Post-Its, Slinky toys, and Silly Putty: pretty much by accident. During my first year on contra in drum corps, I had a horn with a cracked ferrule for a few days and kept using it in rehearsals until we found a replacement. It was like golfing with a fishing rod. Many years later, I used my own 2-valve King contra in a hornline with 3-valve horns, and I played along with the warmup exercises that required a third valve by holding open the water key and lipping down; when I got back to my concert tuba that fall, my low register was nicer than ever.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Michael Bush »

Leland wrote:Halfway between mouthpiece buzzing and playing normally on the horn:

Am I the only one who's tried... no, actually used... holding open spit valves to practice?
I associate this practice with Roger Lewis, perhaps mistakenly. But I think he has suggested it on here. I used to do it and then stopped for no particular reason. Maybe I'll go back to it for another try. It will wear out your chops pretty fast!

Plastic zip ties will hold it open very nicely. Still have them in my practice tools bag.
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Leland »

bloke wrote: prop it open the the pencil that's sitting on my music stand...
Michael Bush wrote:[Plastic zip ties will hold it open very nicely. Still have them in my practice tools bag.
There we go!
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by happyroman »

Roger Rocco has an old tuba that has the valves removed that he plays regularly. He calls it the "Valveless Tuba" and demonstrates it near the end of the following video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Leek2HnVtW8" target="_blank
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Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing

Post by Slamson »

I get the funny feeling that some folks thought that since I said "I hate mouthpiece buzzing", that I don't DO mouthpiece buzzing. Far from it. I keep a Kelly 18 in my car at all times so there's never an excuse not to buzz driving from gig "A" in Forgottonia to gig "B" in Lower Slobovia. I do hate buzzing, though because:
(a) It reminds me how much my breath support is relying on the back pressure of the horn;
(b) I get tired so much quicker; and
(c) I just can't enjoy listening to a mouthpiece buzz (by anyone)

But I DO IT! For me it's like taking Castor Oil or some other sort of medicine - I do it because it's good for me, not good to me.

Be careful out there, though - a trombonist colleague of mine who was buzzing (not buzzed) while driving got pulled over by a cop because he thought he was hitting on a bong.
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