Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

The bulk of the musical talk
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by bort »

Ok, my latest idea is to switch back to a Miraphone tuba. I have previously owned a 1291 and a 188, and liked both very much. Loved the playability of the 1291 and the sound and ergonomics of the 188. Have spent some serious time on the Bruckner and like a lot about it, but ergonomics are less good than the 188.

I know all three models have been discussed here almost literally ad nauseum... And I know all three models very well. But curious if anyone has any new experiences to share.

Anything new? :tuba:
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by bort »

Side note: I wish Miraphone would make a larger rotary CC tuba than any of these. A "bigger" 188 would be ideal... The 190 does exist, but for me, has never really seemed like a very good option at all.
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by bort »

Maybe the CC version... :P
User avatar
cjk
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1915
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:16 pm

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by cjk »

There's a 291 CC. The Bruckner or something.
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by bort »

Yes, the 291 is the Bruckner. I like it a lot, just not as comfortable as the 188.
Mark Horne
bugler
bugler
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:59 pm
Location: Texas Hill Country

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by Mark Horne »

We've discussed it before, but the larger Miraphone you seek exists - it's just made by Alexander. I've played all the models you've listed and I have owned all but the 188. The modern generation of the Alex 163 beats all those other horns in terms of sound quality and depth in my opinion, and its intonation is quite comparable, with the Alex perhaps being just a bit flatter on the D in the staff.

I always felt that the 188 was a little too resistant in the range below low G, and I was never pleased with the sound I got from the Bruckner. When I bought my Alex some six years ago I believed that the build quality was noticeably better than the Miraphones (which were uniformly excellent); to this day the Alex could pass for new.

I remember being very impressed with the Miraphone 1293, except that I had a bit of a hard time with the stiff piston springs. It was not until some time later that I learned that Yamaha euphonium springs would work well - that was something that I used on my 1291 which significantly improved the ergonomics.
Alexander 163 CC 5V, MW Thor, Mel Culbertson Neptune, B&S Symphonie F 6V
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by bort »

Mark, yes, the Alex 163 is really high up on my list. Unfortunately, I'm only interested in the newer 163's, and very few used versions are out there... and even then, they cost significantly more than my max budget of $8,000. If I could find a newer 163 CC for under $8k, then that would be an easy decision for me. But if that won't happen... then it's time to choose a Miraphone.

Joe -- I think the ergonomics of the Bruckner aren't as good as the 188. The super compact wrap of the 188 makes the tuba bottom heavy and very easy to hold, and also allows maximum slide reachability (as if it needed it). Intonation seems better on the 188 than either other tuba, although for me, none of them are particularly problematic.
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by bort »

cktuba wrote:I know in the past that you've said that you had no interest in Yamaha tubas... However, back in the days of old TubeNet, I seem to remember people speaking very positively of the YCB 861 as being very similar to the 163 with good intonation. From time to time you see used 861s show up for sale at prices below that of the newer Alexanders.
Forgot about those! Don't seem them very often, but would be interested to try one. Thanks for the reminder.
Dan Bradley
bugler
bugler
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:38 pm

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by Dan Bradley »

These instruments are all fairly different, from my experience. I found the 188 to be lighter and more ergonomic than the Bruckner. The Bruckner seemed a bit heavy and cumbersome. The 1291 is more similar to many of the newer-style piston CC's- great projection, intonation, sound, but a distinctly different sound from the rotary miraphones. I don't think that you can wrong with any of them, but I like the 188 the most. I love miraphone! Though I don't really like the new 5th-valve lever. Good luck!

Dan Bradley
User avatar
cjk
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1915
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:16 pm

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by cjk »

bloke wrote:
bort wrote:Yes, the 291 is the Bruckner. I like it a lot, just not as comfortable as the 188.
tuning?
pretty good IIRC.
rudysan
bugler
bugler
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:36 am

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by rudysan »

A Rudolf Meinl 5/4 !
barry grrr-ero
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:40 am

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by barry grrr-ero »

. . . for 8K? . . seems unlikely.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel that the CC version (291 Bruckner) doesn't hold a candle to the original BBb 191.

If money were no object, I'd be all about the "Siegfried".
joh_tuba
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by joh_tuba »

bort wrote:Side note: I wish Miraphone would make a larger rotary CC tuba than any of these. A "bigger" 188 would be ideal... The 190 does exist, but for me, has never really seemed like a very good option at all.
The 190 is notably more in tune than your typical 6/4 CC and plays pretty easy. I've heard spectacular things performed on one by an accomplished dedicated player. What's holding you back from loving them?
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by bort »

I tried a new 190 at Dillon music a few years back, and it was a big tuba in all the wrong ways. Took lots of air, hard to play it well, and intonation wasn't easy. Maybe it was just the kind of tuba you have to spend some time with to figure out... But in that sense, it was very un-Miraphone-like. Perhaps it was just a bad example of the model... But to me, it just was not something that I could take seriously to consider. It did look cool, and on paper, does seem like something I would like. My experience with it though was negative, especially compared to the excellent Bruckner and 188 models that I tried.

Would love to be proved wrong, though, and find out that the new 190 really is a good Instrument.

I would also like to hear a 190 in action, besides Tommy Johnson -- he clearly could have made any tuba sound spectacular.
User avatar
Billy M.
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 667
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:23 pm
Location: Pensacola, Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by Billy M. »

Mark Horne wrote:When I bought my Alex some six years ago I believed that the build quality was noticeably better than the Miraphones (which were uniformly excellent); to this day the Alex could pass for new.

I remember being very impressed with the Miraphone 1293, except that I had a bit of a hard time with the stiff piston springs. It was not until some time later that I learned that Yamaha euphonium springs would work well - that was something that I used on my 1291 which significantly improved the ergonomics.
1. That's the difference between boutique horns and mass production with excellent quality control. Miraphone makes very well constructed horns, but they are working to produce more horns than Alexander does. Nothing wrong with it, but ordering something like an Alex or Rudy Meinl, there's something distinctly different since a master craftsman is dedicating time to the horn from start to finish. I still think the world of my 1291 though (nudge at bort).

2. I tried the Yamaha euph springs on my 1291 and found that the return on them, even in vertical position was too slow for my tastes. The Yamaha tuba springs work well, though.
Romans 3:23-24

Billy Morris
Rudolf Meinl Model 45, Musikmesse Horn
Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Eb (19" Bell)
1968 Besson New Standard Eb (15" Bell)
MN_TimTuba

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by MN_TimTuba »

As a highly interested amateur tuba player who's owned exactly 2 tubas in my 59 years, I find it mighty entertaining to see you who are accomplished/professional tuba players having personal inner debates on exactly the same things we amateurs debate, though on a much higher level; i.e. - we nitpick Ford vs Chevy, you nitpick Mercedes vs BMW. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for my Holton 345 reconditioning project to be completed - a horn I find (thru reading here) is mostly either highly loved or totally despised. I hope I'll love it when it returns to me, or I'll have to start my own debating here. Keep up the conversation, I'm enjoying it!
Phil Dawson
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 302
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:53 am
Location: Livingston MT

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by Phil Dawson »

Get a 1293, have the leadpipe work done (talk to Roger Lewis) and you will have a wonderful horn. Phil
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 11222
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by bort »

Tim, I think most of us around here are like you, interested amateurs. I am interested to see how your 345 turns out, and hoe much more you will like it!

Phil, thanks for the suggestion. I will have to do a little homework about the 1293. I haven't played many of them, and don't really remember how they compare to the 1292.
MN_TimTuba

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by MN_TimTuba »

Bort,
Glad you're interested in the 345 project! Since I live about 3 hrs N of Eric, feel free to drop in on him and take it for a test drive. I'm hoping to have her back by October...
Happy hunting.
Phil Dawson
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 302
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:53 am
Location: Livingston MT

Re: Miraphone 188, 1291/2, and Bruckner

Post by Phil Dawson »

The main differences between the 1292 and 1293 are that the 1293 has a bigger bell (same as the 1290) no bell kranz, a larger 5th valve rotor which gives it a better low range, and the removable leadpipes. I believe that Roger Lewis helped wit the design of the 1293 and he would be the one to talk to. I worked with him when I got mine (it was a show demo) and he is very familiar with the tweeks that can make the horn play even better. Phil
Post Reply