Question to ponder

The bulk of the musical talk
Post Reply
TWScott283
bugler
bugler
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:35 am
Location: New Orleans, La.

Question to ponder

Post by TWScott283 »

If the professional tuba-playing community prefers CC to BBb, why do our schools teach BBb?
tubaphillips
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:00 pm

Re: Question to ponder

Post by tubaphillips »

You're just talkin' about american classical tuba players, who are still divided on BBb vs CC. You're also excluding the brass band community, which is overwhelmingly BBb, mostly sousaphone. (I'm one of the weirdos who plays his CC in brass bands). I'd say the global market prefers BBb. Hell, I'd even argue that there's a bigger market for F tubas than CC tubas. In fact, if I were a bettin' man I'd put down money that says CC is the LEAST popular style of tuba at the moment.
Harry Phillips
1954 Conn Naked Lady 20K
TWScott283
bugler
bugler
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:35 am
Location: New Orleans, La.

Re: Question to ponder

Post by TWScott283 »

Great point - Yeah, I need to refine my question...but you get at the heart of my question. Maybe, in US, it's a case where the education standard is behind the process slightly?
tubaphillips
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:00 pm

Re: Question to ponder

Post by tubaphillips »

It's purely economic. Most educators have strained budgets as it is. BBb tubas are the most plentiful in the market and most widely produced. They're the best bang for your buck. If CC tubas were significantly cheaper and easier to find than BBb tubas we'd all be using CC
Harry Phillips
1954 Conn Naked Lady 20K
User avatar
windshieldbug
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Once got the "hand" as a cue
Posts: 11511
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:41 pm
Location: 8vb

Re: Question to ponder

Post by windshieldbug »

TWScott283 wrote:If the professional tuba-playing community prefers CC to BBb, why do our schools teach BBb?

Same reason schools teach Bb trumpets and not C's...
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
Dan Bradley
bugler
bugler
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:38 pm

Re: Question to ponder

Post by Dan Bradley »

Another reason I would say is that all of the other brass concert band instruments are in Bb, except for horn. So if a player switches from baritone, then the fingerings are the same, just an octave down. I agree that the BBb tuba doesn't get enough love in the U.S., though I play CC.

Thanks,
Dan Bradley
User avatar
TUbajohn20J
4 valves
4 valves
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:44 pm
Location: Sugar Land, Texas

Re: Question to ponder

Post by TUbajohn20J »

I own 3 tubas and they're all in BBb. A 6/4, 3/4, and sousa. Just didn't see a need to switch to CC like you're "supposed to do after high school". Nobody ever cared because I sounded good. Not even sure many people noticed. For the big stuff and concert band settings I use the 6/4. For solos and anything where I would need to play high for long periods or have a brighter sound, I'd use the 3/4 because you can really make those sing like an F or Eb horn. Key is not really a big deal like a lot of people make it out to be.
Conn 26J/27J
Conn 22K Hybrid
Mark

Re: Question to ponder

Post by Mark »

TWScott283 wrote:If the professional tuba-playing community prefers CC to BBb, why do our schools teach BBb?
One of the implications of this question is our public schools (K-12) should be preparing tuba players for professional positions. I would think 99.999% of all tuba players never go on to be professionals. Since the cost of CC tubas is considerably more, on average, than BBb tubas, it would be financially irresponsible for schools to purchase CC tubas. For those that want to be professional tuba players, it is very likely they will be asked to switch to CC when entering college or a conservatory. If those students are serious, making the switch will not be that difficult and they will retain their BBb skills for marching band (scholarship money) and teaching tuba to public school students.
JasonBaker
lurker
lurker
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: Question to ponder

Post by JasonBaker »

How did the tradition of American professional tuba players using CC instruments even get started? I always heard the reason to use them was easier fingering in keys that orchestras use, but you still end up with awkward fingerings at some point. Was there a particular player or teacher that made CC more popular for professionals?
doublebuzzing
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Question to ponder

Post by doublebuzzing »

Because BBb tubas are just as capable as CC tubas and the majority of band pieces played are more favorable to BBb over CC.
tofu
5 valves
5 valves
Posts: 1995
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: One toke over the line...

Re: Question to ponder

Post by tofu »

CC tubas in general offer faster response. BBb tubas in general offer much better intonation. Seems to me that school groups struggle far more with intonation than they do with needing a slightly faster response out of the tuba section. A section of new style King 2341's for example offer pretty much point and shoot intonation without a lot slide pulling and pretty good response. Same would be true of a section of Miraphone 186's. That would be pretty hard too match price wise with CC tubas. Plus you have a legacy issue with BBb Sousaphones - how many band directors are going to want to have to teach all his tuba players to be fluent in both fingerings. Has anybody yet made a CC sousaphone with great intonation and sound?
User avatar
roweenie
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Waiting on a vintage tow truck

Re: Question to ponder

Post by roweenie »

Trumpets = Bb

Trombones = Bb

Baritones/euphoniums = Bb

Sousaphones = Bb

Band pieces = flat keys

The overwhelming majority of kids in school music programs don't move on to professional music careers.

Many beginning instrumental music teachers have group classes, often teaching several different instruments at once.

You'll also notice that E flat tuba is no longer the beginner instrument of choice (as it was for me, back in the dark ages). Maybe the above statement is the reason for this, as well.
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day".
User avatar
The Big Ben
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 3169
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:54 am
Location: Port Townsend, WA

Re: Question to ponder

Post by The Big Ben »

roweenie wrote: You'll also notice that E flat tuba is no longer the beginner instrument of choice (as it was for me, back in the dark ages). Maybe the above statement is the reason for this, as well.
I've been told that the Eb was the "beginner's tuba" because it was easy to move a treble-clef reading, trumpet fingering player over to the tuba. Starting on a BBb tuba, a trumpet player needs to learn new fingerings and clef. But, I suppose, if they are going to progress past a peashooter Eb, they will need to learn BBb fingerings and the bass clef anyway so may as well do it all at once and be done with it. It's not really easy but it's not really hard, either.
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5977
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: Question to ponder

Post by Donn »

JasonBaker wrote:How did the tradition of American professional tuba players using CC instruments even get started?
Is that a fact - American professional tuba players? How many of the professional tuba players in America never do orchestra gigs, and maybe never got on the C train? Always been somewhat curious about this, as it seems there could not be much money in playing classical music on the tuba.
User avatar
roweenie
pro musician
pro musician
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Waiting on a vintage tow truck

Re: Question to ponder

Post by roweenie »

The Big Ben wrote:
roweenie wrote: You'll also notice that E flat tuba is no longer the beginner instrument of choice (as it was for me, back in the dark ages). Maybe the above statement is the reason for this, as well.
I've been told that the Eb was the "beginner's tuba" because it was easy to move a treble-clef reading, trumpet fingering player over to the tuba. Starting on a BBb tuba, a trumpet player needs to learn new fingerings and clef. But, I suppose, if they are going to progress past a peashooter Eb, they will need to learn BBb fingerings and the bass clef anyway so may as well do it all at once and be done with it. It's not really easy but it's not really hard, either.
This may be true for some, but it wasn't my personal experience. I started on cornet (4th grade), but when I switched to baritone (5th grade), my music teacher taught me bass clef. Then, when I was switched to E flat tuba (6th grade), I had to learn new fingerings yet again. Then, when I switched to BB flat tuba (7th grade), I had to learn those fingerings (talk about confusion..... :cry: )
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day".
JasonBaker
lurker
lurker
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:01 pm

Re: Question to ponder

Post by JasonBaker »

Donn wrote:
JasonBaker wrote:How did the tradition of American professional tuba players using CC instruments even get started?
Is that a fact - American professional tuba players? How many of the professional tuba players in America never do orchestra gigs, and maybe never got on the C train? Always been somewhat curious about this, as it seems there could not be much money in playing classical music on the tuba.
I didn't think that was a controversial statement. Anyone I have ever met that played tuba for money played a CC instrument. I know it's entirely possible to play professionally with a BBb instrument in the US and there are people doing it. It seems like a lot of people in the US that want to play professionally end up on a CC instrument.
Kirley
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:00 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Re: Question to ponder

Post by Kirley »

I'm one of the "professional tuba players" that never do orchestra gigs. Also, I've never even played a CC tuba. Nor do I have any interest in learning new fingerings. I'm more than happy with the Bb fingerings which very easily translate to baritone/euphonium/flugabone fingerings, trombone slide positions, and transposed trumpet fingerings (which I use while reading trumpet music and pretending its tenor clef).

But to be perfectly honest, I'm a sousaphone player. Not a tuba player. I'm much more closely related to the world of bass players than "American professional tuba players". A CC tuba would move me a whole step in the wrong direction. :)
User avatar
The Big Ben
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 3169
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:54 am
Location: Port Townsend, WA

Re: Question to ponder

Post by The Big Ben »

roweenie wrote:
The Big Ben wrote:
roweenie wrote: You'll also notice that E flat tuba is no longer the beginner instrument of choice (as it was for me, back in the dark ages). Maybe the above statement is the reason for this, as well.
I've been told that the Eb was the "beginner's tuba" because it was easy to move a treble-clef reading, trumpet fingering player over to the tuba. Starting on a BBb tuba, a trumpet player needs to learn new fingerings and clef. But, I suppose, if they are going to progress past a peashooter Eb, they will need to learn BBb fingerings and the bass clef anyway so may as well do it all at once and be done with it. It's not really easy but it's not really hard, either.
This may be true for some, but it wasn't my personal experience. I started on cornet (4th grade), but when I switched to baritone (5th grade), my music teacher taught me bass clef. Then, when I was switched to E flat tuba (6th grade), I had to learn new fingerings yet again. Then, when I switched to BB flat tuba (7th grade), I had to learn those fingerings (talk about confusion..... :cry: )
I started on trumpet and then played the baritone (treble clef) then to the F horn. I didn't play BBb tuba until much, much later. I think the pedagogy of trumpet to Eb tuba was common at one time. If I knew baritone (bass clef) it would have been a drop kick to take up the BBb tuba. But, we do what we do and we does what we does.

I have the fingerings for trumpet drilled deeply in my head and have often wondered how easy it would be for me to take up a CC tuba by using my trumpet fingerings (most of them) and reading the bass clef directly as note names not "lines and spaces". I haven't had the opportunity to try a CC tuba and it's more for curiosity than anything else. If I was offered a screaming deal on a CC tuba which was a 4/4 or larger and better than what I already have, I'd consider it. I play a 3/4 BBb horn in a small amateur orchestra and it's "just right" for the situation. I also am in the tuba section of a 75 piece concert band and a 4/4 or larger horn would be nice but I'm hanging in there with my 3/4 and the other two guys have 5/4 and a 6/4 so nobody hears my mistakes quite like they hear theirs. ;)
Post Reply