compensating for the compensating system

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Eflatdoubler
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by Eflatdoubler »

Wyvern wrote:
Eflatdoubler wrote:I have a Wessex Solo and would love to know when this 3rd valve compensating slide extension was done as it could still benefit from added length. Or I should say, I have a Wessex custom, which I was told is the same as the Solo I ordered (only after I received it). I think it is poor practice to sell something to someone that is different then advertised. If I bought a GMC Sierra 1500 and received a Chevy Silverado- they call that bait and switch.
I paid the same new price and when I questioned this I did not so much as receive an apology, only told," they are the same."
If your Wessex Solo does not have the lengthened slide then it was manufactured before that improvement was implemented. Like the phone you buy now will have improvements over what was sold last year, so may be the case with a Wessex instrument. We are always working to improve and make them better. The Custom on the bell is irrelevant. That was just version of Wessex engraving used for a while - it means nothing particular.

If you require longer slide then contact me off-line. I am sure we can get made.
Thank you, but this answer is exactly proving my point and perhaps the point of others. Let me first preface this with that I do like your instruments. I have had students purchase both Wessex euphoniums and JP euphoniums and I tell them both are good instruments. If they prefer a Yamaha sound, go with Wessex, and if they prefer Besson, go with JP.
My issue is that you say the engraving "Custom" is irrelevant, yet you say if it is too short you will make me a longer slide. Obviously if the "Custom" was the same as the "Solo" it would be known if this was done already. I realize the goal is to constantly improve, but for some reason you opted to sell an instrument as "custom" and then changed the engraving, along with changing the slide length, etc... (even though the advertised instrument was a "Solo").
If a person orders a custom, sell them a custom. If they order a solo, sell them a solo. If they are the same (which obviously they are not- I would think using the serial number would be a way to recognize any change) tell them ahead of time. When I ordered my horn the issue on the forum was slow valves due to crud left in the horn. This problem was brought up and supposedly solved on your end, yet when I brought up my concern I was told I wasn't using the correct valve oil (I was using la tromba t3 valve oil). I have since used the Hetman and the Wick oil as suggested and experienced the same result.
As to the telephone analogy- they always change model numbers to designate changes which has been my point from the get go. An iPhone SE looks like a 5S but they are very different beasts under the hood.
- obviously this has jumped the shark. I only bring this up because Bloke merely mentions a very useful fix and then it seems someone takes offense and throws mud. There was never a mention of your product. I applaud what you have been trying to do in both creating affordable instruments and trying to improve quality for what one pays. I am perhaps sensitive to this issue because from a warranty stand point I have brought these topics up very kindly and I feel as if there is always a side stepping, and then when someone brings up any issue on this forum there appears to be the ability to time travel and an "already solved that, including the one you have issue with" statement.
I do think JP are put together by more skilled hands (based off of what I have seen multiple time by wessex in the past 3 years up to 16 months ago, and from jp in the past 2 years up through 2 months ago) but that does not mean I think the end result is always better. I do think the Solo is a home run in regard to bell size for an eflat tuba, especially for my purposes. I look forward to a longer 3rd valve compensating slide that will have to be 2cm longer than the "already fixed" version since the female end of the slides are not already longer. I also think the normal 3rd valve slide could be slightly shorter (1/2" as the high B runs a little flat with a 2-3 combo). One can always pull, but shortening is not an option.
Sincerely,
Matthew Dickson
Houston, TX
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Wyvern
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by Wyvern »

Matthew, Please contact me off-line if you want to discuss issue with your tuba. I do not want to hijack Bloke's thread
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imperialbari
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by imperialbari »

The best solution would be, if all 4-valve compensators after the Blaikley system came with two slides for the 3rd valve comp loop. A short one true to the system math. And a longer one messing with the system math, but preferred by some players in certain situations.

I would not like buying an instrument allegedly built after the Blaikly math, where somebody had tampered irreversibly with that math.

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Donn
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by Donn »

Sadly, the math is inherently flawed anyway, right? because there is only one compensating loop, where in principle a four valve system would need three. Someday, Blaikley is going to be relegated to the dusty archive shelves of history by someone who can use modern technology to implement the mathematical ideal. Probably with motor assisted tuning slides.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by gwwilk »

Donn wrote:...Probably with motor assisted tuning slides.
I can see it now: "Tonight's concert will be delayed for a few minutes. The tuba player forgot to charge his tuba's batteries. Our sincerest apologies for this inconvenience." :shock:
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by windshieldbug »

gwwilk wrote:
Donn wrote:...Probably with motor assisted tuning slides.
I can see it now: "Tonight's concert will be delayed for a few minutes. The tuba player forgot to charge his tuba's batteries. Our sincerest apologies for this inconvenience." :shock:

"Is there a D-cell in the house?" :P
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by imperialbari »

Telescopic cables connected to foot pedals.

A compensating euphonium with 4th valve depressed is a small 3 valve F tuba.

A compensating F tuba with 4th valve depressed is a small 3 valve CC tuba.

A compensating Eb tuba with 4th valve depressed is a small 3 valve BBb tuba.

A compensating BBb tuba with 4th valve depressed is a small 3 valve FF tuba.

Would any good trumpet player play his 3 valve instrument with a fixed pull on his 3rd valve? Giving up the use of throw ring or trigger?

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Donn
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by Donn »

bloke wrote: Perhaps I need new glasses (??), but I see THREE compensating loops. Do you own a Blaikley System instrument?
I sure don't! Everyone knows they're stuffy. But what I meant by "loop" is the entire circuit - all the tubing in play when the 4th valve is depressed. All the other valves partake of that loop, via the extra compensating ... uh, loops. "Loop" was not a good choice of words for that, sorry! Maybe path. There's only one extra path.

So the math ... if we let A, B, C and D be the natural length of valve tubing associated with the respective valves, normalized to the length of the bugle, OK? So A would be about 1.122, D would be 1.333, etc.
Then the extra length needed to compensate for a valve combination C+D, turns out to be simply C*D; the compensation for A+D is A*D.
But when you add another valve to that series, say A+C+D, you need a couple more terms A*C + A*C*D, plus the A*D and C*D you already have per above. On an Eb tuba, are they 13.5 feet? I reckon that would be near 5 inches - just to add 1+3+4 to a compensating system "perfectly" adjusted to 1+4 and 3+4 (which I guess no one does.)
QED, the math is whacked.
ouch
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by ouch »

Tried this trick with much success, didn't have as much trouble with the low Gb as I thought I would. Yes it did feel flat however the extra tubing makes a noticable difference on the chops, it feels more open and closer to the low F you would feel/hear on a contrabass tuba.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by ouch »

Fair enough; I'm all ears for your next piece of advice!
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by Rumblebuffin »

Hello,
I've read this particular thread with interest as I know of some solutions that have been tried to the problem's being discussed
Alan Sinclair-former Principal tuba at the CBSO-had extended 3rd compensating valve slides made for his Besson New Standard EEb's in the late 1970's & early 1980's. (Essentially-he just had longer inner slide legs fitted that made the compensating slide stand out about 3/4" in the 'fully-in' position.) It worked pretty well.

Personally, I went a step or two further with my Besson EEb's by having a trigger fitted to the 'main third valve' slide by Mick Rath (Of Rath Trombones). This involved venting the third valve, shortening & machining stockings on the inner 3rd slides & setting the whole lot up to be parallel. (The trigger mechanism sits beneath the fourth valve and is operated by the middle finger.) The travel of the slide is about 4".
This works well &-as you can imagine-solves the low E & F problems completely.
(I also had a version done on the first slide-but that isn't what's being discussed here!)

I opted for the trigger solution primarily as-at the time-I was doing a run of Prokoffiev Romeo & Juliet with a reduced sized touring ballet orchestra.The usual solution to low E sharpness (Simply pulling out the main 3rd & compensating 3rd slides for a particular passage & pushing back in again as required.) wasn't going to work when there were so many low E & B naturals in the same passage. 'Dance of the Knights' or 'Montagues & Capulets' from the suite-being a prime example:There is no time (And no fingers!) to manually adjust the slides.

It was a precision, time consuming job & was expensive-but it has been well worth it, and it (And here I refer to the trigger & slide mechanism !!!) has performed faultlessly for the last 15 years.

I hope this is of interest.
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imperialbari
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by imperialbari »

That is the solution I would go for, if I were younger.

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iiipopes
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by iiipopes »

bloke wrote:All 5000 of us are regularly reminded that Wessex instruments are all perfect in every way, they are all inspected by official inspectors to insure even higher levels of perfection, that they continue to become even more perfect, and all that jazz...
...but "Wessex instruments" (nor any make, in particular) are not the topic.
Perhaps (??) Wessex-specific comments could be transcribed into a new thread entitled something such as
"Wessex instruments: perfection, utopian wonderland, transcendence, and the Shangri-la of Brass"...
I would say that the BR115, the 4-valve bell-front American-style bari/euph, with its slightly larger bore than the traditional King, Conn, Reynolds, Olds, Martin, etc., "traditional" "baritone" horns of the golden age of American concert bands, does fit my needs in community band better than any other horn. Period.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by iiipopes »

bloke wrote:I'm glad it's serving you well.

For whatever reason (??), those Conn double-belled "euphoniums" (little more than wildly souped-up Conn 14I baritones), sure seem to consistently remain in demand (even compared to other old makes of double-belled).

ImageImage
And the King versions as well. You should see the reported selling prices on Dave Werden's forum! :shock:
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by barry grrr-ero »

During the years I owned my 3+1 'eefer', it worked fine for me by having a stop put on the third valve compensating slide (and keeping it out); keeping the regular third valve slide out farther than normal, and having a thumb activated ring to move the main tuning slide (which also had a stop on it). Because I had the bigger pipe and 19" bell, a bigger issue for me were the octaves being a tad too small. Therefore: main slide in when playing up high, main slide out when lower. A simplistic view but it worked. I got tons of compliments on the sound of that horn. Agility wasn't it's best feature, however. I had the "Parker cut" done on it as well.

I wish I had shipped that horn off to Mike Johnson in England, because I think he could have turned into something really special.
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Re: compensating for the compensating system

Post by iiipopes »

Some stuffiness is due to either: 1) bends in the tubing at an inopportune place, or 2) an improperly placed brace, both which interfere with an antinode, and thus damps desired resonance to center a pitch.
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