5 valve Bb contrabass tuba ???

[marccromme]

I play myself a 5 valve Eb bass, and like the technical possibilities for especially E (or A) 235 or 24 and Ab 45.

I am considering buying a 5/4 (used) Bb contrabass tuba, but this one - a Melton - has only 4 valves. It seems pretty normal for Eb and C tubas to have 5 valves, but the available Bb tubas I have seen here near Copenhagen have all only 4 valves (rotary, or are English 3+1 compensated)

Why is this so? Why does one not see many more 5v rotary Bb tubas? 4v can't fill the gab to the pedals ... Just curious .. seems odd to me.

[TUbajohn20J]

I loved my 5 valve Willson BBb. I have to admit I rarely used the 5th valve. Only for low b natural 12345 and every now and then I used it for low Eb 4-5. It was nice to have but not a necessity. With a good slide pull you could get low notes in tune using just 4 valves.

[Patrase]

I have been told that they tried 5 rotary valves on the rotary Fafner but it was too stuffy, so they stuck to four. Obviously the piston Fafner doesn't have that issue. But if you search the boards there were 6 valve B&S Bb rotary tubas in the 70's. As to 4 valve Bb's versus 5 valve versions they probably kept them to 4 valves because the intended use of the 4 valve Bb tuba's is that they be affordable and be played in Wind Bands by amateurs, rather than championship level Brass Bands or Pro level orchestras.

To fill in the intonation gaps the easiest solution would be to add a second valve trigger to get 2 and 4 combinations in tune. But that leaves 1 and 4 sharp, unless you pull slides.

If you are going to use it in a Brass Band with compensating Bb then get a second trigger installed to avoid being chronically out of tune on 24 combinations, or get ready to ride the 4th valve slide.

You can play a low B natural above the pedal Bb on 12 using false tones on the Melton Bb I tried. Worked well. So in practice, with a 2nd valve trigger, pulling slides and using false tones, you can play the full chromatic range on a four valve rotary Bb.

[Art Hovey]

Dillon sells a very nice BBb tuba with 4 pistons and one rotor. It is moderately priced and plays very well. But I would like it more without the 5th valve because of the extra weight. A BBb tuba is heavy enough without a 5th valve. It is true that 2-3-5 is better than 2-4, but I am willing to pull my 4th or second valve slide when necessary for those two notes.

[TheGoyWonder]

Usually on german tubas 4th valve can be jammed all the way in for a low Eb 124, and usually on American tubas 4th can be run long (1-3 used instead) and 1st valve pulled for a low Eb 14. If this sounds like a PITA maybe a 5th valve would be good for you.

[oedipoes]

Why is this so? Why does one not see many more 5v rotary Bb tubas? 4v can't fill the gab to the pedals ... Just curious .. seems odd to me.

I have had a 5th rotor added to my 4/4BBb Rudolf Meinl, if that answers your question...
I do not like to manipulate slides while playing, so the 5th valve reduces that necessity to a minimum.
You can order (almost) all 4-valve rotary tubas as 5-valve optionally, whether inline or as dependent 5th in the 4rd valve loop.

[marccromme]

Thanks for the good food for thoughts. So, the main reason seems to be that 5v are not required for Bb since most music does not go further down than Eb or D. On the other hand, the convenience of 235 for low E and middle B are nice in keys with many sharps, and one does not need to trigger on second or 4th slide as much.

Personally I find 24 combinations very arkward, especially when coming from or going to 23 (= E major, B major scales on a Bb tuba, A major or E major on Eb tuba).

So I think I'll check it out and see if I can live with a 4v Bb bass, or if I need an additional 2nd trigger or 4th pull or even a 5th valve.

Thanks for your valuable input!

[TheGoyWonder]

my theory on 5-valves: sometimes I want one, but then I do this little exercise: try to play 1234, even as a non-note, with some semblance of quality. When I can do it, I'll have earned myself a 5-valver.

[imperialbari]

The rep that many many German amateur bands play rarely takes the 2nd tuba part (meant for BBb instruments) below G below the bass stave. You will see marching German amateurs with very well made BBb tubas that only have 3 valves. All a matter of weight.

Where players of rotary BBb tubas start asking for a 5th valve, is when they join British style brass bands playing the newer competition rep. They might get happy with such a 5 rotors instrument, but I am not sure they actually will become happy. The only BBb tubas better suited for the British brass band sound concept than the 3+1P compers after the Blaikly design, are big front action piston BBb tubas or even big BBb sousaphones. But very few of these have more than 4 valves.

Klaus

[oedipoes]

Where players of rotary BBb tubas start asking for a 5th valve, is when they join British style brass bands playing the newer competition rep.
Klaus

As those brassband composers like Mr. Sparke tend to write also for symphonic wind band, 5 valves are a very welcome feature in that setting as well...

Orchestra: This guy thinks he needs 5 valves, and he souds mighty good...
https://youtu.be/-pzTLk-thrQ

[Bill Troiano]

I had a friend, back when I lived in NY, who owned and played a 5 valve 1291 BBb.

[Lectron]

Quite a few people have their 4V rotary ordered with 5V
And very often it's not even considered a custom job, already having prefabbed parts and model number.

[LCTuba89]

I very seldom see BBb tuba with 5 valves but everyone that I have seen and played were very impressive. The 5th valve makes the Ride significantly easier to play especially if it's a 4 piston + 1 rotor setup.

In the future I'd like a 5 valve rotary BBb tuba just because I like having easier access to certain notes.

[marccromme]

my theory on 5-valves: sometimes I want one, but then I do this little exercise: try to play 1234, even as a non-note, with some semblance of quality. When I can do it, I'll have earned myself a 5-valver.

On the right tuba it is quite manageable - my MW 2141 5v Eb has a fine low range.

[marccromme]

Where players of rotary BBb tubas start asking for a 5th valve, is when they join British style brass bands playing the newer competition rep. They might get happy with such a 5 rotors instrument, but I am not sure they actually will become happy. The only BBb tubas better suited for the British brass band sound concept than the 3+1P compers after the Blaikly design, are big front action piston BBb tubas or even big BBb sousaphones. But very few of these have more than 4 valves.

Klaus

Klaus - that is exactly why I am asking - I play in a 1st division DK Brass Band, and need my 5v on the Eb so badly. I suspect it will be the same on the Bb parts. And I am looking for a 5/4 or Kaiser size MW, Rudy or similar.

[Lectron]

Klaus - that is exactly why I am asking - I play in a 1st division DK Brass Band, and need my 5v on the Eb so badly. I suspect it will be the same on the Bb parts. And I am looking for a 5/4 or Kaiser size MW, Rudy or similar.

You would miss the 5th

[iumentum]

Klaus - that is exactly why I am asking - I play in a 1st division DK Brass Band, and need my 5v on the Eb so badly. I suspect it will be the same on the Bb parts. And I am looking for a 5/4 or Kaiser size MW, Rudy or similar.

I play in 1st division brass band as well, and the 5th valve is a must. There are often no time to pull any slides in some of the pieces.

[TheBerlinerTuba]

Hello Marc,

also es gibt B-Tuben mit 5 Ventile schon aber es ist nicht der Norm. Für leute die sie sich kein Boch haben Züge oder Triggers zu bedienen, kann man ein 5. Ventil einbauen.
Hier ist eine Cerveny Kaiser mit ein vollkonische Maschine von 21,20mm bis 22,20mm dann eine 5te mit 23mm.

Viele Grüße aus Berlin,
TheBerlinerTuba

[Lectron]

If interested, Buffet-Crampon/Meinl-Weston might have a 5V + 2nd trigger Fasolt that can go for a good price

[TheGoyWonder]

some rotary tubas have a long untapered dogleg (tuning slide and valves same 20.x mm bore or at least super close), so a fifth rotor could be put under fourth and not mess up the leadpipe.
how you would linkage to it, would take some wizardry.