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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby YORK-aholic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:00 pm

Ha. One of ours finds it's way into the pantry and drags whole loaves of bread (still in the bag) UP the stairs. Every once in awhile we find a very stale loaf with a few nibbles in it, under one of the beds.

I wish I could catch that on video...
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:08 am

Slogging away in the carport. Thank goodness the weather has been so fine of late...

Today was grunt work. It sucked. It sucked for eight straight hours. But it is mostly done.

I scrubbed off silver much of the time, chemically cleaned old Miraphone parts from the 1960s that were NASTY (and need to go back into the tank tomorrow for awhile), I cut a few odd bits of tubing, I decided to swap my 5th rotor for my other one, removed ferrules from it and cleaned it up. (It has been in storage for about four years.)

I also burned hours lightly sanding out badly pitted and scratched parts of four crooks. I don't like to buff pits out as you cannot really control where you are thinning out the metal. I needed sanding in areas about the size of a dime or smaller, or in strips about two inches long but only a quarter inch wide.

After all the sanding (for this and for removal of silver plating) I sat there in the carport and burnished these four crooks for what felt like (to a kid) an entire school year. The end result is that now I can more clearly see where very fine dent work needs to be done (and whether it really is merited) and — eventually — some very shiny crooks. I am very pleased with how these came out. One will have to be my lower 4th slide because I cannot get the pits and scratches out to my liking and at the same time I am too cheap to spring for a new one. (It is a Miraphone patr, so it is spendy. Other than the "look" of this crook there is nothing at all wrong with it, actually being the best formed of the three Miraphone crooks I am using on this tuba.)

So, tomorrow I will install my "tuba-adapted" (yet miraculously non-leaking) Amado keys in their new homes. I will then vent 2, 3 and 4 of my piston set and vent the rotor casing as well.

I have a package with all my remaining tubing arriving tomorrow around 5:00, so I will try to get all this done by then, eat a late lunch, and then spend the evening cutting 18 ferrules, a mess of inner slide legs, and some lengths for crooks and doglegs.

I am shot.

Goodnight.

Here are a bunch of parts that I worked on today. Not impressive, but included in this are the crooks for most of my slides, two doglegs for 4th that I will try to adjust for the new bore size (otherwise I have to make them again with the new tubing) and a bunch of nicely fit pairs of Miraphone tubes for my 2nd slide and the small side of my MTS. Also worth noting is that I discovered a major leak in my too-loose MTS due to my using some particularly craptacular St. Pete tubing. When removed from the horn and mated together, you could see DAYLIGHT clean through from one end to the other. HOYL CRAP! So the old inner leg is there with some other St. Pete tubing that fits much better. It will actually need some lapping, so this makes me happy. Not only will the MTS not start falling out on a hot stage when I have to pull way out, but a big leak is now fixed. That makes seven leaks in this horn that are now properly sealed up or that now use properly fitted tube pairs.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby KiltieTuba » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:56 am

Will you ever take on someone else's project?
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:09 pm

I do not like doing work for other people. I tend to do stuff that makes me happy or challenges me intellectually (like rerouting slide circuits and such). If it is actually well done and has a purpose I can usually sell it. If it is very well done but serves no purpose other than sheer novelty I almost *always* sell it. HA! (As an example of this, I may have already sold my Ab tenor tuba, yet I have not even started work on it and do not anticipate it being completed until Fall of 2018.)

Why do you ask?
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bisontuba » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:46 pm

the elephant wrote:My cat managed to steal my 5th rotor unit and hide it under my bed wrapped in a sock. I just thought I would share that with you. It cost me four hours in the shop that I really needed to use and a boatload of panic.

Stupid cat. Ugh...



Ah, kitties.....
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:05 pm

Okay, I have received a number of requests for me to identify all these parts, here, on Facebook and on another website, so here is that same pic with some annotation. Note that I am posting the very largest version. To see it you will have to open it in a new window. To see all of it at once you will probably have to download it. Sorry, but that was the only way to include all the detail.

Here is the explanatory junk... ;-)

I am bumping the bore from a mixed bag of 19 mm (.748") and .750" crooks and tubing. The B&M valve section was made in Germany, and 19mm equates with our .750" stuff. The main difference is between the two tube sets is that one is made in Europe and very thin-walled, while the US-sourced stuff (from Allied) is approximately twice as thick in the walls. They are 100% not mixable — you *must* keep the Allied inner/outer sets together and the B&M inner/outer sets together.

In any sort of reality that is not infected with trumpet-geek-like obsession with numbers: THERE IS NO PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO SIZES. STOP WORRYING ABOUT IT!

I am bumping the original bore from 19mm to 19.5mm ONLY BECAUSE THIS IS THE INNER DIAMETER OF THE TUBING SETS I CAN GET WITH NICKEL SILVER OUTER TUBING. I do not have a secret theory on this bore size being somehow better or worse or whatever over the original Holton .750" or the B&M 19mm slide bore sizes. When placed next to one another you can indeed see a difference between the three, but when you imagine exhaling into any of these to create a column of vibrating air, you can plainly see that the differences will make zero practical differences in output or response or pitch or anything else, if you are sane. (I am catching hell from a trumpeter, who is absolutely INSISTING that I am totally changing and possibly ruining my tuba by moving up from essentially .748" to .769" ID tubing. In fractional terms it *looks* like a big jump (if you are used to the numbers associated with the tiny tubes of a trumpet) but in reality, placed next to one another, there is no real, perceivable difference to the player. Is there a difference? YES, IT IS LARGER. But I challenge anyone to do this to their tuba and then tell me that they could tell a difference before versus after that did not include errors that were added or removed from the first version of the valve section. If you do try to feed me this I will write you off as being insane. ;-)

Here is the pic with my labels of everything. I can explain the acoustics behind some of my choices, but more than 90% of those choices were based on simple convenience. Steps in bore up or down (of this percentage) do not make much difference at all, except in one or two key places, and even then, the changes are quite small.

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Last edited by the elephant on Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:14 pm

bisontuba wrote:
the elephant wrote:My cat managed to steal my 5th rotor unit and hide it under my bed wrapped in a sock. I just thought I would share that with you. It cost me four hours in the shop that I really needed to use and a boatload of panic.

Stupid cat. Ugh...



Ah, kitties.....


I liked that cat you had when I got this tuba from you. What was his name? I remember you told me he had passed away, and that was sad. Poor fellow.

Mark, I liked this tuba when we traded for it, despite some of its inherent quirks, but in trying to fix some of the mechanical problems (like the funky 5th in the leadpipe and the curved long tube on 4th that made the top 4th slide all wonky) I still loved it. You were spot on about the sound. And you were right about the 4th valve being the same size as the rest of the pistons helping clean up the low register. But I accidentally discovered a lot of stuff hidden in this tuba as I dug into it. And each time I correct something it gets better. It is like a different tuba from the one you traded to me, however, the silver plate had to be ruined to do all this. Currently the inner branches and top bow are raw brass that I plan on buffing up and lacquering (because of $$$) and the valve section also will end up lacquered. It will be removable, however. So I can send the bugle off to Anderson's to have it plated sometime in the future. But I think I will leave my lacquered valve section alone, as that is the worst part to have to polish, and most of it will be buffed nickel silver anyway.

If I *ever* finish this horn I will have to drive it up for you and Don to give it a toot and to give me feedback on how it plays and the effects of what all I have done to it. I think you would be pleased at where it is now and where it will be when I am done.

How are your back and side? Still giving you fits? Or are you in better condition now to lug horns around everywhere? Hope you are well, sir.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bisontuba » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:42 pm

Hi Wade-
My old cat was Schroeder. Poor fellow got cancer and had to be put down.
Back is still the same (sigh)... carry horns with carry handles and not on the back.
Fascinating the work you are doing/have done....knowing what great work you do ( as evedenced on your old Alex), this horn should be out of this world when you are finished!!
Happy horn work!!
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:26 pm

Okay, so Allied *sort of* redeemed itself to me today. My final needed tubes came in on backorder from Miraphone. (They told me their source on the phone. It is Miraphone itself, apparently. Interesting...) So the last shipment was all mildly damaged or poorly drawn. It was the dregs of a keg that does not frequently get emptied, so they have probably been in those bins for years, which would explain a lot to me about the condition of some of the tubes. Whatever. I bought out the remains of a supply they do not often replenish, I guess.

Anyway, today's box contained one long outer tube in nickel silver, as I requested, and three yellow brass inners that match that outer. All fit as expected with one being very tight but do-able, and the other two sliding all the way through snuggly. These will not be a problem at all.

Of course, I still need to see if these all fit with what I already have on hand.

If they don't then that would *really* suck...

I will be back tonight with some pics of whatever mess I get myself into with this stuff.

Later.

Oh, and anyone who wanted the super-large photo with annotation posted above, sorry, it has to be reduced in size. This is ridiculous. If you want the big one I can email it to you.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby KiltieTuba » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:36 pm

the elephant wrote:I do not like doing work for other people. I tend to do stuff that makes me happy or challenges me intellectually (like rerouting slide circuits and such). If it is actually well done and has a purpose I can usually sell it. If it is very well done but serves no purpose other than sheer novelty I almost *always* sell it. HA! (As an example of this, I may have already sold my Ab tenor tuba, yet I have not even started work on it and do not anticipate it being completed until Fall of 2018.)

Why do you ask?


You just do very thorough work with what you have.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:21 am

My shipment came in early, so we sat on the bed with a lot of parts and strategized for about an hour, trying to plan out what we would do and in what order. (This is important to do.)

At about 2:00 we headed out to work in the carport and did not stop until about 11:30! My wife went in to practice and to make meals for us and to take care of our cats. I sat at my bench and only got up to walk off my "bleacher butt" from the wooden chair I use.

I recut all the inner stuff I did the other day since I now have enough brass inner slide material for all the slides. I recut the outer 2nd legs, too. And then I ended up cutting the outer legs for 1st, since that slide must work flawlessly. I simply made a new set of tubes with the most excellent action after testing parts out on all the tubes, marking where things did not work well or where they worked particularly well. This paid off big time for me in the end.

I also cut all the needed spacers to have a gap-free interior except for where the slides are actually pulled out.

The most horrible part of the day was cutting and dressing 18 nickel silver ferrules. NS is much harder than brass, so it is also much harder to file and sand and scrape into a nice, clean surface after being cut. Each one took me about ten minutes. In between I kept lining them up to make sure they all were straight, the same length and had flush ends. I have one with a small gap along one edge that is tiny, so hooray, elephant!

Now, after all that I have to illustrate two "whoopsie" moments. I needed to make new inner and out 2nd slide legs as the original slide turned out to have BIG gaps between the inner legs and the crook ends. I had to remeasure the inners and make adjustments. In all the messing around and on-the-fly math I screwed up and cut two new outer legs that I did not need. it turned out that only the inners needed replacing. Measure twice, start to cut once, then go back and measure that stuff again!

Then, after cutting two full sets of inner and outer legs and spacers for 1st I ended up using the new outers and the old nickel silver inners. All my inner slides are brass inside nickel silver outer tubes. Except for 1st. That one is NS/NS, which normally is not that good of an idea for a slide that you move a lot very quickly, but these tubes lapped together PERFECTLY. So I still have the brass inners and spacer as a fallback, but I don't think I will be using them.

I had a long, hot, mosquito-infested day, and to fight the bugs I sat out in the heat in long sweat pants and a sweatshirt. I work sealed goggles, a respirator and hearing protection all day. I tore up my hands. WAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

Goodnight. Pics later. Not now. Nothing now. Must sleep. Ugh...
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:21 am

KiltieTuba wrote:
the elephant wrote:I do not like doing work for other people. I tend to do stuff that makes me happy or challenges me intellectually (like rerouting slide circuits and such). If it is actually well done and has a purpose I can usually sell it. If it is very well done but serves no purpose other than sheer novelty I almost *always* sell it. HA! (As an example of this, I may have already sold my Ab tenor tuba, yet I have not even started work on it and do not anticipate it being completed until Fall of 2018.)

Why do you ask?


You just do very thorough work with what you have.


Thank, Ian. Much appreciated, sir!
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:42 am

I have 47 mosquito bites. No joke. I have a gig this afternoon. Taking the day off from the Holton.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby YORK-aholic » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:46 am

the elephant wrote:I have 47 mosquito bites. No joke. I have a gig this afternoon. Taking the day off from the Holton.


Good idea. You don't want to show up looking like you have a communicable disease!
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby The Big Ben » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:33 pm

the elephant wrote:
KiltieTuba wrote:
the elephant wrote:I do not like doing work for other people. I tend to do stuff that makes me happy or challenges me intellectually (like rerouting slide circuits and such). If it is actually well done and has a purpose I can usually sell it. If it is very well done but serves no purpose other than sheer novelty I almost *always* sell it. HA! (As an example of this, I may have already sold my Ab tenor tuba, yet I have not even started work on it and do not anticipate it being completed until Fall of 2018.)

Why do you ask?


You just do very thorough work with what you have.


Thank, Ian. Much appreciated, sir!


+1 I hope someday you can have a workshop that is representative of your skills.
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:09 pm

I did. I much prefer doing it this way.

Of note, though: I am looking at getting a CAD/CAM metal lathe and mill sometime this next year. I tend to pay for such purchases by taking in work until my bank account is returned to the sad state in which it normally exists...
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:43 pm

Every part of slide circuits 1 - 4 except for the rerouted section of 4th, which I have not yet figured out.

I did include the extra slide I am sure I will use, an extra dogleg that might go with it, and some shortie legs for an additional slide that could come into play.

Also included are all the parts of main slide except for a ferrule that rolled off the bed when I wasn't looking. Oh, and the MTS brace. (Lest we forget that...)

I did some math and believe I have enough remaining inner and outer tubing to complete 4th. Also, the two long tubes in the photo are not yet cut. They are the long tube for 4th and the spacer that will live inside that tube.

I had a $30 accident today. I folded up an old Miraphone crook. Many cuss words were uttered. I think I can fix it. However, I needed to buy one from Badger State Repair for the as-yet undesigned inner half or 4th. So I had to call him and change that to two of them.

D'OH!

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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby KiltieTuba » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:00 am

Was that folding of the crook because of the sanding and dent work?
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:15 pm

KiltieTuba wrote:Was that folding of the crook because of the sanding and dent work?


No. I just pressed too hard trying to bend it 2mm. These German parts are THIN!
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Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bort » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:40 pm

Wade, you are crazy. Thanks for sharing all of this.

Safe to assume there are no "huge tuba needed" works planned for you this year (calendar year, at least)?
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