middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by Voisi1ev »

bloke wrote:- three middle school 4-valve full-size (not cheap, either) tubas
- three seized (lime) 4th valves (two rotary / one piston)

If you're a middle school band director and need some tubas, you may (??) wish to have a heart-to-heart with yourself re: one four-valve tuba vs. two 3-valve tubas.

another bloke-servation:

Band directors tend to spend MUCH MORE money on acquisition of the instruments that they personally play than on acquisition of other instruments.
"On the Job" for 12-years. I've never really seen the point of 3-valved instruments. Hard enough to teach them to use the 4th valve when they start with it, can't image switching them. Then again, I play the tuba and probably have bought nicer tubas than other horns. Your last point is super true. Also based on experiences of asking clarinet players what bass clarinets they used with their groups.
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by Voisi1ev »

I Should add we have a Yamaha 321 that the previous teacher bought, a new 2341 that was donated, and a couple 186s in great shape that we bought surplus cheaper than the previous 2 horns! So I guess I'm in a weird spot.

I haven't had any rotar issues with the kids yet that I've heard can happen, my kids tend to take great care of stuff though.
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by Donn »

Voisi1ev wrote:Also based on experiences of asking clarinet players what bass clarinets they used with their groups.
Do they spring for Low C instruments? That's kind of an extreme example parallel to the 4th valve question: significant hit to economy and durability, for the sake of a couple notes they won't normally play. I don't know what the current equivalent would be to the Vito polypropylene low Eb of 20 years ago, but that's what belongs in a school band - fairly bullet proof with a simple mechanism that doesn't cross the neck joint.

I guess bloke's message is intended for people who 1) would believe it's important to buy a 4V tuba for school band, and 2) wouldn't care to do what it takes to get the students to use it. If anyone like that is reading here.

I personally have mostly played 3V BBb tubas, but had a 4V Miraphone for a while in the '90s and a 40K. For me, switching to using a 4th valve doesn't require a lot of intensive retraining, and I'm no youngster. Everyone's different, I guess, but I would think a kid with any potential who graduates to 4V would likely be as good on it after a couple weeks as if he or she had started that way.
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by Three Valves »

This Three Valve snobbery is unseemly!!

:tuba:

My middle school (1973) BD got me a Fender Jazz Bass, Bassman head and cabinet.

This supplemented the new full size Engelhardt and vintage aluminum Kay bass we already had.

He was a bass player.
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by proam »

Interesting observation. With only my experience having my own children in school band programs, I would tend to agree with bloke. And my experience is also with Tennessee band programs, just 500 miles east of bloke.

Mark says that he would be disappointed if the band program does not have kids on a 4-valve instrument by their second year of playing. Our middle school band wasn't bad but I am afraid it was no where near that level.

My experience is mostly in the trumpet world and I'm pretty sure none of the middle-school trumpets were using their first- or third-valve adjustment slides before they left middle school. It is difficult enough to get them to use those in high school. I didn't really push my own child to worry about the fine adjustments until later.

My euphonium son had a 4-valve Yamaha 321 from the school. When he started taking lessons in high school, we got him a used, compensating Yamaha 642, I think. My daughters had access to good, Holton double horns from middle school on, though they may have been borrowed from the high school. (Horn players were always given encouragement to stick with it.) And my other son had access to my own trumpet collection.

Perhaps that's just the difference between a good and mediocre middle school band program.
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by roweenie »

I didn't play a 4 valve tuba (O/S King 2341) until I was a junior in high school (and I bought it [not mom & dad], against my teacher's wishes [refer to arrow below], not the school).

It didn't seem to hold me back too much, but that was almost 40 years ago, and those were different times (I suppose).

:arrow: Three valves also didn't seem to hold back Mr. Butterfield too much.
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by Donn »

roweenie wrote:but that was almost 40 years ago, and those were different times (I suppose).
They are, but there are also different places. Last week I was listening to a couple people exclaim over the stuff their kids were doing in "gymnastics". I remember seeing a high school biology quiz that was far past anything we'd have been exposed to in high school - in part because some of that stuff was unknown to science at the time, but also because it was a relatively rural school, and those were different times. To get sort of personal here, I've read accounts of instrument purchasing by school band programs in urban areas of Texas, that seemed bizarrely expensive, but then I imagine their band programs are more ambitious than average in every way. Ours was off the scale in the other direction, we had a bass drum and a piano, maybe some other stuff.
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by roweenie »

bloke wrote:four valve tubas...??
Cost as little as *$1600 for new, full-size, playable ones.
Wow - IIRC, I paid $1800 for that King (new) in 1979.

I had to clean a health spa (can you say "disgusting"?), clean a church, mow a lot of lawns, and deliver a lot of newspapers to make that happen....
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by opus37 »

I think the "that was then, this is now" comment made earlier is close to the truth. My wife and I just visited our grandsons' school for grandparents day. Maybe this school is special, but we noted that the classroom is much more free form (bordering on chaos) than we remember. They just have tables, not individual desks like we had. No rows of students sitting up straight and disciplined for getting out of line (the norm). We were taught to take care of things. There seems to not be that kind of instruction in this school. I'm not saying it is bad, it is just different. In this school of 1200 kids, there are 500 in a music program. I've not seen their tubas (if they have any), but based on our observations, there seems to be no "take care of it" sense in these kids. So this begs the question, are kids less likely to take care of a school instrument now days? This leads into a 3 valve versus 4 valve tuba for middle school. I am of the group that believes a 3 valve instrument is adequate for middle and most high school students. I don't think they need it musically and care wise, a waste of money.
Last edited by opus37 on Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by ken k »

same goes for 4 valved sousaphones...
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by edsel585960 »

Three Valves wrote:This Three Valve snobbery is unseemly!!

:tuba:

My middle school (1973) BD got me a Fender Jazz Bass, Bassman head and cabinet.

This supplemented the new full size Engelhardt and vintage aluminum Kay bass we already had.

He was a bass player.
We 3 valvers must unite or be overrun by the unwashed hordes of 4 valve players! :lol: Seriously, I have 3 and 4 valve horns. Depends on the gig what I use. Paying more for 4 valve horns for beginners is a waste of resources. Most schools down here don't have enough horns for the kids that want to play. Have to agree with Joe. 2 3 valves trumps one 4 valve for the school on a budget. :tuba:
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by Voisi1ev »

I know I was sort of baiting the hook for you there. All situation are different, we have 6-12 in the same building all using the same set of gear with good funding, so I've gone overkill on a few things. Like I said, my kids are also pretty good with stuff.
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Re: middle school tubas: bloke theorum - 3-for-3

Post by Three Valves »

bloke wrote:
It was unusual for families to have more than one car or one telephone, air-conditioning was a luxury, and people spent more time interacting face-to-face - rather than as "TubeNet" or "facebook". Though excellence has always been somewhat rare, seemingly (??) a larger percentage of students pursued singular interests (such as a band instrument, or singing, or mathematics, or science, or gymnastics...etc.) to see just how well they could master ~one~ discipline.
:arrow: To the original topic: More was accomplished with less.
Reminds me of a restaurant review I did a few years ago; guess which one closed... :(
The Harbor House at Worton Creek Marina

Harbor House Restaurant - Home

23145 Buck Neck Road
Chestertown, MD 21620

Do you remember 60s and 70s Swank when the food (and booze) was all that mattered??

When siblings, even in upper middle class families that owned motor yachts, shared bedrooms??

Then the Harbor House is for you.

Seafood or steak, starters or desserts, no one complained about a thing except the dated decor and bathrooms.

Be prepared to spend -$30 for entrees, (the night we went thru August, all entrees were just $20, find the coupon in the Marina Store) and leaving full and tipsy.

If not, skip right to;

The Osprey Point Inn near Haven Harbor Marina in Rock Hall.

Osprey Point Inn, Restaurant and Maina | Rock Hall MD | Eastern Shore Maryland | Chesapeake Bay

20786 Rock Hall Ave
Rock Hall, MD 21661

If you hated the good old days, have granite counter tops in your kitchen, and sleepless nights thinking your kids will only get into a State University, well, welcome aboard!!

The grounds, buildings, food, service and wine are impeccable.

Seafood or steak, starters or desserts, no one complained about a thing.

Be prepared to spend $30+ per entree but leaving impressed.

When I gloss nostalgic about how cool my banana seat bike was, or how hot my '67 Pontiac was when I got it in 1978, I'll hop over to Worton Creek.

When I realize what a POS they both were, or how it was ever possible to spend the night on board a boat without air conditioning, Osprey Point will be my destination!!
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