What is the 3450 really?
-
- 4 valves
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm
What is the 3450 really?
We all know that the MW/B&S/VMI borg has a penchant for mixing and matching parts to make 'new and improved' designs.
Any hair brained theories as to what the 3450 *really* is?
My theory: PT3P with the fifth valve moved to after the main slide and tweaks to the taper to 'fix' the intonation. <-- I can't comment on their level of success.. this is not an endorsement of either horn.
Any hair brained theories as to what the 3450 *really* is?
My theory: PT3P with the fifth valve moved to after the main slide and tweaks to the taper to 'fix' the intonation. <-- I can't comment on their level of success.. this is not an endorsement of either horn.
-
- 5 valves
- Posts: 1238
- Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:03 pm
- Location: The Darling Desert in The Land of Oz
Re: What is the 3450 really?
If it's "hair brained theories" you want.........do you think this is really the place to seek them?
Free to tuba: good home
- bort
- 6 valves
- Posts: 11223
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: What is the 3450 really?
First draft of the Ursus?
-
- 4 valves
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm
Re: What is the 3450 really?
Well... sure...
But the HOJO 2011 front action BBb looks an awful lot like the body of the VMI/B&S3301/PT2P with a 17mm valveset and a super long leadpipe and main tuning slide *before* the valves. The VMI3301/PT2P body in BBb is almost certainly the same parts as the PT3/4 cut to CC.
I'm dubious that they've created any new mandrels for any of the newer horns. My memory only goes back to the 90s but I feel like I recall the PT3 being a 'Perantouched' larger valve set version of a 17-21mm horn that B&S already made long before that AND that horn was an amalgamation of the B&S F tuba bell and bottom bow with the 'Symphonie' valve section mushed into CC.
Also noteworthy that the PT3 and PT4 are no longer listed on the B&S website. I think they've worked out how to sell us nearly the same horn without us realizing it.
Feel free to correct my questionable memory and leaps of logic.
But the HOJO 2011 front action BBb looks an awful lot like the body of the VMI/B&S3301/PT2P with a 17mm valveset and a super long leadpipe and main tuning slide *before* the valves. The VMI3301/PT2P body in BBb is almost certainly the same parts as the PT3/4 cut to CC.
I'm dubious that they've created any new mandrels for any of the newer horns. My memory only goes back to the 90s but I feel like I recall the PT3 being a 'Perantouched' larger valve set version of a 17-21mm horn that B&S already made long before that AND that horn was an amalgamation of the B&S F tuba bell and bottom bow with the 'Symphonie' valve section mushed into CC.
Also noteworthy that the PT3 and PT4 are no longer listed on the B&S website. I think they've worked out how to sell us nearly the same horn without us realizing it.
Feel free to correct my questionable memory and leaps of logic.
-
- 4 valves
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm
Re: What is the 3450 really?
According to Matt Walters in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68987
3225 is purported to be a tweaked version of the PT606.
Is the 3450 the same as the 3225 with a slightly different valve section?
3225 is purported to be a tweaked version of the PT606.
Is the 3450 the same as the 3225 with a slightly different valve section?
- bort
- 6 valves
- Posts: 11223
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: What is the 3450 really?
To me, the 3225 seemed bigger than the 3450 in every way, except for height. Very different.joh_tuba wrote:According to Matt Walters in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68987
3225 is purported to be a tweaked version of the PT606.
Is the 3450 the same as the 3225 with a slightly different valve section?
-
- 3 valves
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:35 am
Re: What is the 3450 really?
I would agree that the 3225 is simply bigger than the 3450.
The 3450 felt a click bigger than something like a Getzen model 50, but not much bigger than that. The 3225 felt a little bit in between a 2145 and 2155. I didn't take any measurements or anything, just basing my comments on how the instruments "felt".
I thought the 3450 played like a smaller version of a 5450, which was probably the idea, I guess. Seemed like it would be a very, very nice CC for quintet work.
The 3450 felt a click bigger than something like a Getzen model 50, but not much bigger than that. The 3225 felt a little bit in between a 2145 and 2155. I didn't take any measurements or anything, just basing my comments on how the instruments "felt".
I thought the 3450 played like a smaller version of a 5450, which was probably the idea, I guess. Seemed like it would be a very, very nice CC for quintet work.
-
- bugler
- Posts: 96
- Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:04 pm
- Location: Tampa, Fl
Re: What is the 3450 really?
This was my impression when I played it for the first time recently. I've played a handful of smaller CCs over the years and I have no doubt that if I had the need and the cash I would have my main bigger CC and then a 3450 on hand for some fun quintet playing or even to use in place of an FF on solo work.ckalaher1 wrote:
I thought the 3450 played like a smaller version of a 5450, which was probably the idea, I guess. Seemed like it would be a very, very nice CC for quintet work.
John Hadden
Brass Development Coordinator, Buffet Crampon USA
(904) 412-3682
john.hadden@buffetcrampon.com" target="_blank
Brass Development Coordinator, Buffet Crampon USA
(904) 412-3682
john.hadden@buffetcrampon.com" target="_blank
- MikeMilnarik
- 3 valves
- Posts: 415
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:20 pm
- Location: Boston, MA / Lancaster, PA
- Contact:
Re: What is the 3450 really?
Not from a design perspective, but the 3450 feels like a Rudy 3/4 with piston valves and a more open low register. Excellent tuba!!
Mike Milnarik
Mike Milnarik
http://www.milnarik.com
INNOVATA
COSMOPOLITAN TUBA QUARTET
MMI - TUBA EUPHONIUM ACADEMY
TUBASTUDIO.com
Tufts University & Milnarik Music Initiative
INNOVATA
COSMOPOLITAN TUBA QUARTET
MMI - TUBA EUPHONIUM ACADEMY
TUBASTUDIO.com
Tufts University & Milnarik Music Initiative
-
- 4 valves
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm
Re: What is the 3450 really?
There are obvious differences from the Rudy 4345(which is purported to by a copy of an old Conn) but they are certainly in the same 'family' of design.MikeMilnarik wrote:Not from a design perspective, but the 3450 feels like a Rudy 3/4 with piston valves and a more open low register. Excellent tuba!!
http://www.rudolf-meinl.de/index.php?id=4596
-
- bugler
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 6:31 pm
- Location: I'd prefer a trout stream
Re: What is the 3450 really?
I don't know what it is but do note that ergonomically it was the best fit compared to my 184 or the Getzen CB50.
I am shorter than average and it was nice to play a horn my size.
I thought it played well and intonation was good when I played it at ITEC.
ScottM
I am shorter than average and it was nice to play a horn my size.
I thought it played well and intonation was good when I played it at ITEC.
ScottM
-
- bugler
- Posts: 168
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:54 am
- Location: New Zealand
Re: What is the 3450 really?
I own a 3450 and a 2011TA ‘HoJo’. They play and sound very different to my ears despite having the same 17 inch bell.
The 3450 has a fluffier broader sound. It is very friendly to play. The low register is open (ie takes a bit more air). It feels more amenable to orchestral literature. It can do slurs and diminuendos and stuff. (I’m not a legit guy).
The hojo needs more finesse to play. Going below the stave is harder. Perhaps because of the skinnier valves and tubing?
The HoJo has a really nice front to the note, sort of ‘bouncy’ like a motown electric bass. It’s a light tuba too, great for strolling and jazz gigs where you don’t need a 20j or the like.the valves are fast and i prefer the top pistons. I don’t know about tuning.
The 3450 has a fluffier broader sound. It is very friendly to play. The low register is open (ie takes a bit more air). It feels more amenable to orchestral literature. It can do slurs and diminuendos and stuff. (I’m not a legit guy).
The hojo needs more finesse to play. Going below the stave is harder. Perhaps because of the skinnier valves and tubing?
The HoJo has a really nice front to the note, sort of ‘bouncy’ like a motown electric bass. It’s a light tuba too, great for strolling and jazz gigs where you don’t need a 20j or the like.the valves are fast and i prefer the top pistons. I don’t know about tuning.
MW 3450, 2011TA HoJo, Conn 20J
-
- 4 valves
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:34 pm
Re: What is the 3450 really?
I finally had a chance recently to closely examine a 3450.
It's a smaller horn than a PT3 with probably no parts in common. The bugle is much more similar to a Conn 3J with similarly point and shoot intonation.
It's a smaller horn than a PT3 with probably no parts in common. The bugle is much more similar to a Conn 3J with similarly point and shoot intonation.
-
- 4 valves
- Posts: 928
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:50 am
Re: What is the 3450 really?
I had a Meinl-Weston 3450 in my shop this year. It had sustained damage, so I had to spend a lot of time getting the 3rd and 4th valves, and 4th and 5th valve tubing
repaired, and tension-free. Although I saw no leadpipe damage at all, I used a mouthpipe cable and dent balls to bring the leadpipe into round. I have been suprised by how many fairly-recent M-W's come to me with not-round leadpipes. This makes a tremendous difference in playability. Once finished, I took it out and played it for several weeks. My impression is that the instrument plays very well in tune, has a quick and lively response, has a nice tone and resonance, but for me it will edge-out when really pushed, volume-wise. During the summer I also did a bit of playing on a Rudi 3/4 CC, and these two horns are completely different. The Rudi has a darker sound, and can be pushed volume-wise to sound like a much larger instrument. The 3450 is a light & bright sound, probably just the thing they were trying to create for Jon Sass. I would use it for quintet, solo, or small ensemble in a heartbeat, but not so much for a large ensemble.
repaired, and tension-free. Although I saw no leadpipe damage at all, I used a mouthpipe cable and dent balls to bring the leadpipe into round. I have been suprised by how many fairly-recent M-W's come to me with not-round leadpipes. This makes a tremendous difference in playability. Once finished, I took it out and played it for several weeks. My impression is that the instrument plays very well in tune, has a quick and lively response, has a nice tone and resonance, but for me it will edge-out when really pushed, volume-wise. During the summer I also did a bit of playing on a Rudi 3/4 CC, and these two horns are completely different. The Rudi has a darker sound, and can be pushed volume-wise to sound like a much larger instrument. The 3450 is a light & bright sound, probably just the thing they were trying to create for Jon Sass. I would use it for quintet, solo, or small ensemble in a heartbeat, but not so much for a large ensemble.
Lee A. Stofer, Jr.