"cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by pjv »

The only reason I own a cimbasso is because my tuba hates Verdi.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by J.c. Sherman »

Biggs wrote:
eupher61 wrote:
The problem as I see it is that now, anyone auditioning for an opera gig has to have yet another instrument. I'm not trying to be nosy about pay, but does the Met, f'rinstance, consider cimbasso a double? How about any other company in the US? How about European companies??

jest wonderin'
I'm comically far-removed from any sort of high-end audition circuit, but I recall (with about 95% confidence in this particular memory) that the Chicago Lyric Opera required cimbasso in their most recent audition (per their excerpts list) and was willing to grant auditioners the use of the Eb cimbasso owned by the company if they so chose. Someone closer to the situation (the winner, perhaps!) could probably give more complete and more accurate commentary about this and other similar instances.
Correct; the cimbasso was not used in the first round, however.

The video shows a very typical (non-hodge-podge) Italian-style instrument.

We do know what Verdi accepted and sanctioned. It was manufactured by Pelitti and is well documented and often copied. Modern instruments show a variety of layouts, similar to the wide variety of trombones.

An "extended Baritone" would differ from a contrabass valve trombone in the overall bore profile and in the bore, receiver, and mouthpiece used. It would be a very, very different sound!

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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by bisontuba »

Not 1870 but 1890-1900? On ebay...FYI...Mark

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380974078669?ss ... 1423.l2649" target="_blank
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by J.c. Sherman »

?!? It's just a valve trombone... there're many which would play much better.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by pjv »

I've always assumed that the idea behind the modern cimbasso is that it IS meant to be a valved trombone in F. (the "l"-form is a practicality, right?).
That it's larger is logical being that all brass instruments have become, like their owners, fatter.

Yes, many of the mid 20th Century revival cimbassi were designed to be press & played by tuba players and many of these are obese (the cimbassi).

We're now in the 21st century and bigger is not necessarily better. Hopefully time and taste will weed out which designs produce a sound that's effective for our needs.

Regardless of what one wants to hear or play, the cimbasso is here to stay. As players we might use a smaller tuba in the studio then we would for a Bruckner symphony. It's logical to assume that a player may want a steroid cimbasso by a modern work or a studio gig but choose for a smaller bore cimbasso when playing Verdi.

Right now, we are the ones making the rules. I say lets give the cimbassophiles their civil rights and kill this troll once and for all.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by PaulMaybery »

:shock:
Last edited by PaulMaybery on Thu May 28, 2015 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by J.c. Sherman »

The modern nomenclature is, like "Baritone", and unavoidable convenience for an instrument we've come to use for playing parts marked "Cimbasso". Hans Kunitz started this problem, even though the Italians still had the term "trombone contrabasso Verdi" or "Tuba Verdi" for the same instrument... in fact, Respighi used "contrabass trombone", and "trombone basso" was also used by cimbasso. Kunitz and his model manufactured with a slide by Alexander began the "confussion", which has long since been resolved. As everyone from Verdi to Bevan has urged the use of the valved contrabass trombone for cimbasso parts, the name has become a shorthand of convenience.

I could make the same argument, and have to swallow hard on "Contra ALTO" clarinet, which is clearly a contrabass (and the Bb is a double or subcontra bass). But we live with the more common shorthand. You're not wrong, Bloke, but your effort would prove fruitless, I think.

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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by imperialbari »

Too much grande madeira?
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by J.c. Sherman »

3...
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by PaulMaybery »

"Terminology" vs "Organology." The bain of the musicologist. So what then is "The Point"? Or should we as tubaist just order a "Pint" and be done with it? :wink:

Verdi eventually got what he wanted. So should we. Pilsner Urquel for starters for me or how 'bout a jug of Carlo Ross "Paisano." Goes down well before, during, after or even without dinner.

I think if Verdi had heard a certain Eb Besson recording bell in the pit, non of this would even be spoken of today. :oops:
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by Steve Marcus »

pjv wrote:We're now in the 21st century and bigger is not necessarily better. Hopefully time and taste will weed out which designs produce a sound that's effective for our needs.

Regardless of what one wants to hear or play, the cimbasso is here to stay. As players we might use a smaller tuba in the studio then we would for a Bruckner symphony. It's logical to assume that a player may want a steroid cimbasso by a modern work or a studio gig but choose for a smaller bore cimbasso when playing Verdi.

Right now, we are the ones making the rules. I say lets give the cimbassophiles their civil rights and kill this troll once and for all.
Beyond the historical and musicological consideration, playing cimbasso can actually be enjoyable. Just ask Beth Mitchell and others who have made cimbasso part of their arsenals.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by The Big Ben »

KiltieTuba wrote:All those old instruments are irrelevant. This is like the thread on bringing back the ophicleide into the modern orchestra - there's a reason why we don't see old designs used regularly... Hence why bloke probably won't find a photograph like the picture posted.

I blame the 1960-80s generations for all the loud music and louder music that has caused the older instruments, like the ophicleide, to be replaced by louder versions to accommodate for the new generation of people with hearing problems... :tuba: :tuba:
"It's all those damn hippies..."
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by timothy42b »

I can't remember if this guy posts on this forum or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M38qRaNloBQ" target="_blank

I haven't heard too many contras, I thought this was an interesting sound.

I knew I'd dragged my kids to too many concerts when I heard one of them humming the overture to Nabucco on the playground.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by hup_d_dup »

bloke wrote: . . . so many tuba players insist on labeling a contrabass valve trombone a "cimbasso" . . . |
No more weird names or crazy shapes. Build it in the shape of an Eb tuba and call it a Bass Trombonium.

(OK maybe that's a slightly odd name too, but it does have historical precedent AND it is accurately descriptive)

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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by UDELBR »

hup_d_dup wrote:Build it in the shape of an Eb tuba and call it a Bass Trombonium.

(OK maybe that's a slightly odd name too, but it does have historical precedent AND it is accurately descriptive)

Hup
Maybe I'm not getting the joke. A tuba is a conical instrument, and a trombone of any sort is a cylindrical instrument. Different bore profile, thus, not "accurately descriptive".
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by hup_d_dup »

UncleBeer wrote:
Maybe I'm not getting the joke. A tuba is a conical instrument, and a trombone of any sort is a cylindrical instrument. Different bore profile, thus, not "accurately descriptive".
By "shape" I mean "wrap," like a euphonium wrap. A cimbasso has a cylindrical bore. Make a cylindrical bore instrument with the wrap of an Eb tuba. Call it a bass trombonium (You certainly wouldn't call it a tuba).

This isn't my idea . . . it's already been done . . . but the instruments are usually called "cimbassos" even though they are not in the shape (that is to say, wrap) of a cimbasso.

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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by Donn »

I bet a quarter that somewhere in Klaus' archives, you could find old cimbassos, labeled as such, in that top valve Eb shape. I think Orsi made one like that, but sadly, according to my vague memory it had only 3 valves, which sort of disqualifies it in this category.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by UDELBR »

bloke wrote: The whole reason that he reportedly disliked the bombardoni was because they sounded harsh or "hoarse"...Is anyone here going to take up the argument that a modern full-board tuba sound, typically, is "harsh/hoarse" whereas the sound of a modern-day full-board contrabass valve trombone sound is "pretty/smooth"...??
Verdi objected to the tuba because it didn't "blend with the others". In his own words:
“I wish to insist again on a fourth trombone. I would prefer a trombone basso which is one of the same family as the others. If this turns out to be too much trouble and is too difficult to play, then get again one of those ordinary ophicleides that go down to the low B. In fact, use anything you like, but not that devil of a tuba which does not blend with the others!”
I would also wager the "wooden thing with holes and metal bell" didn't blend awfully well with the trombones. Thus, the contrabass valve trombone.

Edit: this link seems to provide a pretty credible account of the cimbasso's development: http://jscottirvine.com/little-backgrou ... trombones/" target="_blank
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by UDELBR »

bloke wrote:...as we continue to go around in circles...
...no physical evidence from that period of anything other than extra-long slide trombone things
As the link says, Verdi firmly decided in favor of the valve contrabass trombone in 1881. This was his own decision, and not that of some know-it-all after Verdi's death. This, in contrast to Berlioz' current 'helpers' who've apparently decided that Dies Irae really, really needs to be played two octaves down, despite the composer's express wishes.
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Re: "cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

Post by imperialbari »

The technical problems in creating a bass valve trombone, when the tenor valve trombones was already invented and in use in the Italian opera orchestras would have been manageable with period materials and period tools. Without being anything like a specialist in Italian opera, I still have heard about a conservating factor, which may have delayed the introduction of the more efficient valved bass trombone in the Italian opera houses.

There exists correspondence between Verdi and managers of Italian opera house, from around 1843 I seem to remember, where the managers plead their case for a standard opera orchestration, so that the managers could keep steady orchestra sizes.

I took a look at the scores of Verdi’s 2 last operas, Otello and Falstaff. Both scores specify Trombone Basso as their bottom instrument of the brass section. The Otello opening implies valve trombones being meant.

If my eyes allowed so, I would look at more of Verdi’s scores and possibly also scores by other period composers to see when the lowest brass part was renamed from Cimbasso to Trombone Basso. And then I suspect there must have been a late 19th century convention within the Italian opera sphere, which said that Cimbasso parts were performed on valved bass trombones right from when the swap between the two instruments was agreed upon.

That may account for the oddity that the name of a wooden instrument was transferred to an instrument, which technically is a valved bass trombone.

As for playing in close quarters back then: During the years while Verdi was active as a composer not even La Scala in Milan had an orchestra pit. The orchestra sat on the same level as the public in the Parterre. Alloin one big flat floor. Not even screens as dividers between the musicians and the public.

Klaus
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