Holton 345 Redux Bookmark and Share

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roughrider » Sat May 26, 2018 8:41 pm

It is all good. Thanks for the reply.
1930 King "Symphony" Recording Bass BBb
1916 Holton "Mammoth" Upright Bass BBb
1994 King 2341 Upright Bass BBb
Wedge H2 Solo mouthpieces
Stofer-Geib mouthpieces
roughrider
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:33 pm

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sat May 26, 2018 9:05 pm

Thanks for the interest, honestly! :)
TinyPic sucks. Just sayin'…

Miraphone rotor stem screws = M3.5x0.50
Miraphone cork plate screws = M2.6x0.45 (not a typo)
You're welcome.
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 14190
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Sat May 26, 2018 10:52 pm

Is the bottom bow issue resolved?

I will tell you what I did on one cut-down project years ago...
There was a similar issue...(different routing of inner bows than original, which put bottom bow ends out of kilter...
I just took some sheet metal cutters to the friggin' ends of the bow, and then aligned the ferrules as needed. :shock:

Did doing that make it play "out-of-tune"...??
nope, but ~I~ did, when I blew through it. :lol:

If those issues are in the past...

User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 44075
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roughrider » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:16 am

Any news?
1930 King "Symphony" Recording Bass BBb
1916 Holton "Mammoth" Upright Bass BBb
1994 King 2341 Upright Bass BBb
Wedge H2 Solo mouthpieces
Stofer-Geib mouthpieces
roughrider
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:33 pm

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:01 am

Not yet, too many other things have taken precedence over it for now. Thanks for asking, though!
TinyPic sucks. Just sayin'…

Miraphone rotor stem screws = M3.5x0.50
Miraphone cork plate screws = M2.6x0.45 (not a typo)
You're welcome.
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 14190
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roughrider » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:21 pm

Thanks for your reply! It will be absolutely awesome when completed!!
1930 King "Symphony" Recording Bass BBb
1916 Holton "Mammoth" Upright Bass BBb
1994 King 2341 Upright Bass BBb
Wedge H2 Solo mouthpieces
Stofer-Geib mouthpieces
roughrider
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:33 pm

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:33 pm

Okay, so I have mapped out the routings for 4th and 5th and have decided where the detachable braces must be (because they have to brace the parts while being accessible by a hex key). I have to measure the lengths of both, but the layouts all depend on having the correct radius of crooks and the correct offsets for the doglegs. (There will be three slides and four crooks on 4th and 5th will have the single slide with one crook and five 90º half crooks. Some of these I already have, some will have to be bent here, and I may order one just so it is not some mess made by me.) Once I have all the correct curved bits so that everything can be correctly lined up I can then measure and deduct that length from the overall that is needed, then I know how far down to extend the outside lower 4th slide and how tall the 5th has to be.

The 5th valve will be detachable separately from the piston section. It can be replaced with an internally sleeved straight length of outer slide leg so the horn has only 4 valves most of the time. I can then add 5th when I need it. (Our bass trombonist strongly recommended this to me and I like the idea. It makes the valve section a lot simpler and easier to get on and off the bugle if the 5th valve is not a part of the assembly/disassembly process except for the beginning or end.

I have no real work to show. I have been doing a lot of part mockups to find what exactly I need and of that what I already have. I have drawn a lot of elevation diagrams on typing paper. I have then gone back to the parts boxes with a tape measure and done it all again. This is mostly frustrating work because I do not want to have to purchase a lot of stuff.

Anyway, this is all worked out in three dimensions now, so I can get back to work. I have to take the top bow off the inner branches and then remove both big ferrules and set them up on the bottom bow again to get them aligned better than I eyeballed last time. Once the bell one is soldered on I can solder the smaller one to the top bow and the bow to the inner branches.

The biggest problem I have has so far is that I did a full teardown and have zero reference points for alignment. I have figured out how to get this all together really neatly and with much better detachable brace locations, so it will be stronger that it initially would be. (I don't fully trust these braces with a horn this heavy.)

Here are two photos of the 4th and 5th layouts. There is a lot of three dimensionality that cannot be expressed in these photos unless I do them again from the sides, and I am too lazy to do that. Once I discovered which if my crooks would work this fell into place quickly. This is the sixth 4th slide circuit routing I have done for this horn. It came with some serious BS design work that prevented several areas from ever being accessed without torching the horn apart and ruining the silver plate. Of course, when I got this horn these areas that were inaccessible were all in need of work. That is what started all this mess. I did three layouts, actually building two of them, prior to this round of work, and I have laid this version out three times and nearly started bending stuff when I would discover something that would prevent it from working. I have that all fixed now.

Image

Image

My initial "good" idea, but the inner slide went beneath the MTS. This ended up cocking the valves over enough to require a full four inches added to the leadpipe, and it is already bordering on being flat with the slide all the way in. So I had to rethink, and the obvious solution eluded me because I am a bit of a dim bulb. :roll:

Image

So the large "hoop" crook across the top of the 6th branch was a vague idea as to where the ends needed to be and how far away from the bugle branch it needed to live. The connection via another dogleg to the outer bottom slide was also this vague idea. I have this now, but here were some of the "bad ideas" that I messed with after the above layout proved to not work with my available parts.

No.

Image

I still like this one, but I think having inaccessible crooks on a horn is bad design, and this had no slide. I could not get a slide in there because the MTS was in the way. It had to be that short, and therefore it could not have a slide. So no way.

Image

Also, that one would require me to make a crook as none of what I had on hand would fit correctly and (so far as I know) are not for sale. I was, at that time, trying to only have to bend the one large crook. Anyway, so again" no.

Image

Elevating the crook so that was parallel to and ABOVE the MTS was what was needed. Again, this seems to be pretty obvious, but not so much so from the weird point of view I was coming from at the time. Anyway, this works well with the available space, but the Miraphone 1st crook is too narrow.

Image

However, this dogleg provides the needed clearances for this to work well. I may still bend a replacement for this because it could fit just a bit better. So almost to my "Eureka!" moment. Once I swapped out a crook that is a little bit too small in the bore I had what I needed. It just so happens that I had already balled this crook out about 75% of its length to the needed size.

Wow. Doing my "Big Whoop" dance. :roll:

Image

And this set of two doglegs and a crook fit perfectly. Finally. I just have to finish opening up the one end of the crook and then I can start bending tubes Friday or Saturday.

Image

Arthur Hoggett wrote:That'll do, pig… that'll do.


TinyPic sucks. Just sayin'…

Miraphone rotor stem screws = M3.5x0.50
Miraphone cork plate screws = M2.6x0.45 (not a typo)
You're welcome.
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 14190
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roughrider » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:49 pm

How exciting! You're rolling now! I am really looking forward to hearing your thoughts after you play the completed horn for the first time!
1930 King "Symphony" Recording Bass BBb
1916 Holton "Mammoth" Upright Bass BBb
1994 King 2341 Upright Bass BBb
Wedge H2 Solo mouthpieces
Stofer-Geib mouthpieces
roughrider
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:33 pm

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:07 pm

roughrider wrote:… I am really looking forward to hearing your thoughts after you play the completed horn for the first time!


You and me both, man! You and me both!
TinyPic sucks. Just sayin'…

Miraphone rotor stem screws = M3.5x0.50
Miraphone cork plate screws = M2.6x0.45 (not a typo)
You're welcome.
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 14190
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:46 pm

Okay, I'm back. I don't currently have an oxygen-acetylene torch; I use an air-acetylene one, so it does not get as hot, and when it gets really hot it drinks the gas. I have a lot of tube bending to do and am down to a supply that is worrying me that I will run out in the middle of something important, and AirGas is not open until Tuesday. So I am piddling around doing other necessary (but less fun) tasks.

My head scratching sessions have increased dramatically of late as I do the final layout (with measurements) for 4th and 5th. On this piston block the ports are in odd places and heights, so 4th has always been a PITA to figure out. Above I had posted how excited I was when I finally came to a conclusion what the inside half of 4th needed.

Well, that was all for naught.

I decided that this slide, while in the perfect location and allowing me to use mostly parts I already have on hand, sucked because there was no way to brace it adequately, and it was pretty far out front and would eventually get bent.

I went back to the version with this slide behind the MTS, but using a different crook with more width. This is good in all three dimensions and uses even fewer homemade crooks or doglegs. It is out of the way and will brace up neatly. It will not interfere in the removal of the 5th valve when that needs to happen, and it does not make the valve section impossible to detach from the bugle.

I did a tape mockup and everything works out, clearance-wise. I like it.

Further, I discovered in my box of old 24J parts a large crook just like the one I need to make this work, that I still have to make. But this fits really well and is of the correct internal bore size.

However, this 24J was a beat down mutt with parts from other brands and with holes and cracks, etc. I do not need this for that 24J. that being said, it is in pretty damned bad shape. It is deeply gouged and pitted all over, with many small dents and flat spots. And this tubing is not easy to de-dent.

I *might* use it, but I will probably hold it as an alternative in case I butcher the one I am making. I could use it as a template for my bending blocks and jig. Once drawn onto my plywood I could then adjust it to fit the Holton 6th branch a little better. (The Holton crook is fairly crooked and uneven, so the Conn one is right, but not semicircular enough; it has "corners" like most Conn stuff.

My little Yamaha sousaphone braces will fit between them nicely, however.

So, use on the horn or use as a model to make a part for my horn? I don't know, I stripped, sanded, burnished, sanded, burnished, sanded, etc. for awhile to wear down the pitted areas so that the pits are nearly invisible. This is safe as this part is easily twice as thick as the Miraphone tubing it would have to work with. I will keep burnishing the high stuff down and then I will buff the snot out of it. At the end it will be without flaw (except for some of the dents in the center of the crook) and it will *still* be too thick...

So the new inside 4th slide will go behind the MTS and have a 2.5" pull.
Image

You cannot tell, but the space below the crook is the same as it is above it. (Yes, that is a small crook wedged in there on the right side. I had to use a water bottle, that crook and a tailors tape to brace everything up well enough to see what this would look like.)
Image

These little Yamaha braces will probably be what I use since they take up the least room. These will be used to pin the new slide (after the dogleg next to the 5th valve) to the 6th branch in about four places.
Image

This is the old Conn crook that is almost exactly what I need. I had not yet stripped it or cleaned it up. Sorry...
Image
TinyPic sucks. Just sayin'…

Miraphone rotor stem screws = M3.5x0.50
Miraphone cork plate screws = M2.6x0.45 (not a typo)
You're welcome.
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 14190
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby BrassedOn » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:33 pm

Impressive project. I'm with you on the finish. Need not be fabulous. I'm rid of my last silver plate horn, I have a trombone with sterling silver bell which I never shine, and it looks it, great, and another horn in satin silver aging nicely. Bah to polished silver, yeah for raw brass. Just stripped the last remnants off a Bach 42.


RE: patina....Over on TromboneChat, there are a couple threads on accelerating patina from eggs, vinegar, ammonia, to using a range of chemical reactions, to Palmolive dish soap. I'd try soap first because I think it can be controlled easily and no toxins. Another suggests a wax, to slow the patina formation but ends ultimately in more even patina. I've heard it mentioned before to once you do a patina treatment and rinse or whatever to complete the process, to leave it as long as you can (weeks) before handling to get the most even, deep patina. Like a good base finish before adding the effects of sweat.
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... tina#p7795

This is basically the mechanics of making a patina. Ingredients may differ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vysWjIEYaQk

Some lacquer after they get the patina they want, to stabilize. Others let it continue to age.
Another way to go is brushed brass finish then cover in lacquer, your forte. Lawlor does this on his trombones. Shires too? I think there might be some online video for that. But much more work on a tuba, especially after assembly.
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... ish#p62878
"Do less, better."
2001 King 2341UB BBb
1977 Fender P Bass
1970s King 3b Silver Sonic
1987 Bach 42BO
1990 Getzen 1062 Bass Trombone (Stacked, Dependent)
19xx? Blessing Sousaphone BBb
User avatar
BrassedOn
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:00 am
Location: Texas

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:04 pm

Like. :-)
TinyPic sucks. Just sayin'…

Miraphone rotor stem screws = M3.5x0.50
Miraphone cork plate screws = M2.6x0.45 (not a typo)
You're welcome.
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 14190
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bloke » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:42 am

<sidebar>

BrassedOn wrote:RE: patina....Over on TromboneChat, there are a couple threads on accelerating patina from eggs, vinegar, ammonia, to using a range of chemical reactions, to Palmolive dish soap. I'd try soap first because I think it can be controlled easily and no toxins. Another suggests a wax, to slow the patina formation but ends ultimately in more even patina. I've heard it mentioned before to once you do a patina treatment and rinse or whatever to complete the process, to leave it as long as you can (weeks) before handling to get the most even, deep patina. Like a good base finish before adding the effects of sweat.
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic" target="_blank" target="_blank. ... tina#p7795

This is basically the mechanics of making a patina. Ingredients may differ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vysWjIEYaQk" target="_blank" target="_blank

Some lacquer after they get the patina they want, to stabilize. Others let it continue to age.
Another way to go is brushed brass finish then cover in lacquer, your forte. Lawlor does this on his trombones. Shires too? I think there might be some online video for that. But much more work on a tuba, especially after assembly.
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic" target="_blank" target="_blank. ... ish#p62878


All of this bolsters my long-held assertion (which surely many have long grown weary of seeing it posted over-and-over) that many of those who claim to "only care about the sound" rarely are fooling anyone other than themselves. ...and I view it as just fine to pursue a particular type of patinated appearance, but I also view it as silly to self-deny this pursuit... and - over time - I have come to appreciate that "look". My own euphonium's lacquer was badly checked (crackled) due to being formulated incorrectly at the factory. I stripped it, and intended to polish it and silver plate it...but never got around to doing it. Since then - over the years - it's done quite a nice job of patinating itself, and (well...) it's an OK "look", I suppose...and - as this Swiss maker used no nickel silver - a unified one.

Image

</sidebar>

Back to your regularly-scheduled programming...
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 44075
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby BrassedOn » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:49 am

For some reason, "I've Got a Lovely Bunch of Cocoanuts" song came to mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf670orHKcA" target="_blank

Okay, then I'll admit, having a well aged patina is as much as an aesthetic choice as having highly polished silver, either can be fabulous. In their own ways, they are asking for a long term dedication on the part of the player, with one requiring more labor intensive and the other extreme patience.

Again, great build thread.
"Do less, better."
2001 King 2341UB BBb
1977 Fender P Bass
1970s King 3b Silver Sonic
1987 Bach 42BO
1990 Getzen 1062 Bass Trombone (Stacked, Dependent)
19xx? Blessing Sousaphone BBb
User avatar
BrassedOn
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:00 am
Location: Texas

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:03 pm

This is Jason Maxwell's Yamaha. It is the exact look that I love and have been going for on all my horns. It is the main reason I did all this dang work to the valve section, so that I could have nickel silver slide tubes. I like the strength, too, but I *really* like the look. This tuba, to me, is perfect, visually. This is why I hate lacquer: it makes the tuba look like a spittoon or a bed headboard or a railing on a wall. Lacquered brass looks like a cheap attempt to look like gold. I detest gold trim and accents in the worst way. A gold kit on a car is disgusting to me. I just hate it. I prefer bright silver plating most of all, but it is far too easy to ruin when working on it, and I tinker on my horns non-stop, so both lacquer and silver are a waste of my time. I cannot stand satin or brushed silver and have come to dislike a brushed brass finish, too. There is a huge difference in the patina you get from a buffed horn versus one applied with a Scotch-Brite pad. I know as I tried that on several horns and always ended up polishing them back out and letting them darken with a shine on them. That look of highly shined but very dark brass with bright nickel silver really appeals to me. It is hard to get, and I am still learning. I am hoping with this Holton that I will finally achieve what I am looking for. Our Principal Horn always has this look, and she swears she uses no chemical help, but I am thinking she secretly uses one of those museum antiquing waxes. I will be trying one of them this time around.

Image
TinyPic sucks. Just sayin'…

Miraphone rotor stem screws = M3.5x0.50
Miraphone cork plate screws = M2.6x0.45 (not a typo)
You're welcome.
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 14190
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bort » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:07 pm

Principal horn = your wife?! :)

(Jk, obviously you would have just said "my wife")
B&S GR-41
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 10227
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:17 pm

bort wrote:Principal horn = your wife?! :)

(Jk, obviously you would have just said "my wife")


Nah, Scottye is a low horn specialist, and she played 4th for most of her 16 years here until she retired a few years back. She played 3rd for a while, but never liked it. The 4th player and she switched chair assignments sometime around 2004 I think.
TinyPic sucks. Just sayin'…

Miraphone rotor stem screws = M3.5x0.50
Miraphone cork plate screws = M2.6x0.45 (not a typo)
You're welcome.
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 14190
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby roughrider » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:20 am

That finish looks terrific. Your Holton will look that good soon!
1930 King "Symphony" Recording Bass BBb
1916 Holton "Mammoth" Upright Bass BBb
1994 King 2341 Upright Bass BBb
Wedge H2 Solo mouthpieces
Stofer-Geib mouthpieces
roughrider
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:33 pm

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby bort » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:56 am

the elephant wrote:
bort wrote:Principal horn = your wife?! :)

(Jk, obviously you would have just said "my wife")


Nah, Scottye is a low horn specialist, and she played 4th for most of her 16 years here until she retired a few years back. She played 3rd for a while, but never liked it. The 4th player and she switched chair assignments sometime around 2004 I think.


AH gotcha.

What's the secret to the finish on that Yamaha?

My PT7 is mostly raw brass... and will likely be all raw brass eventually. And yes, that's a very handsome look!
B&S GR-41
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 10227
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Holton 345 Redux

Postby the elephant » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:04 am

I don't think it actually looks much like what I want, as it is sort of brushed, but the *lighting* in the photo looks like how my horn will look after about a year of careful management. Once it gets to that point it should be fine for a long time.

NOTE: I have *never* successfully gotten a patina to look exactly the way I want because I have acidic sweat and I am always playing my horns. I have a way around that right now, plus I plan on trying various vinegar and salt water mixtures to darken it up much faster. I have a method in mind but need to test it out in my driveway.
_______________

I have two sets of small parts on the way. One will not be here for another week or so, I suspect. The other will be here in a few minutes when the mail is delivered. The parts that I have to wait on are for the 1971 186-4U CC I recently purchased from Dan Myer. The one about to land on my porch is for the Holton.
_______________

I need four doglegs of varying offset and length plus that large hoop crook and may have found many of my needed parts sitting here in boxes, which would be grand. However, the hoop and two doglegs are from one of my 24J tubas that will never use that valve section again, and they are .770" bore, as is my Holton. However, they are also more than twice as thick as the Miraphone tubing I have been using. This presents an issue in how to *neatly* join them up to the much thinner tubing. I will work something out if I decide to go with these parts, but I sill might copy them in the thinner metal.
_______________

Tonight I play the 186 in the orchestra for the first time. I have been doing an hour or two of drone pitch work every day since Friday. I will do another hour of that work today. I seem to have a 186 that needs zero slide pulling and only a couple of alternates, only one of which I actually consider to *be* an alternate (3rd space Eb as 23) and a very small amount of lipping (between 5 and 10 cents) on two or three notes. It is not as freakishly in tune as my Jinbao 410, but it is shockingly close for such an old 186. The mouthpiece I am using is great until I get above high E, then it is very fatiguing for me. I need to practice very hard this year to get my physical strength back. It has been flagging as I have aged, as has my endurance on heavy programs. This horn is a fun horn for me to play and I have decided to use it in something like 20 services in September alone. Some of those are quintet (first time to play a CC in that setting since about eighteen years) and all of my freelance for the month, plus six MSO rehearsals and ten performances, so by mid-October I should have this 186 down solid.

I may keep the Jinbao or I might sell it. The two are *not* the same beast, and despite the Jinbao's resemblance to the 186 it is like having a completely different 4/4 CC. Even the wife agrees with this. So I will probably keep the Chinese tuba, too, since the resale value of the 410 is not very high.
_______________

So I have to go put in two hours on the 186 and at least a half hour on the Kurath. Then I will start looking at this Holton again, possibly getting outside to do some actual work tomorrow after all this rain stops. I have two educational programs tomorrow morning at the concert hall, so I should be home in time for lunch, and then I am off until Friday when I have two more of these concerts. Next week is insane, though, so I really need to hit it while I have this cool front in town and all this free time on my hands.
_______________

And now the thought of the day: Imagine if the Star Wars and Star Trek universes were joined and the Gungan (Jar Jar Binks' species) had been assimilated by the Borg. "Wesa da Borg. Gimme yous skeebeetle. Wesa gonna assimilate all-n yous peoples. Resistance isa nutsen."
TinyPic sucks. Just sayin'…

Miraphone rotor stem screws = M3.5x0.50
Miraphone cork plate screws = M2.6x0.45 (not a typo)
You're welcome.
User avatar
the elephant
Papa Legba
Papa Legba
 
Posts: 14190
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:38 pm
Location: 404 Not Found

PreviousNext

Return to Repair, Modification, and Construction

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests